The MOD has too much land, its costing them (via us the tax payer) alot
to maintain when they could simply hand it over to the forestry commission or national trust. They simply dont need it all. They are just greedy you know whats. Whitehall is run by muppets who are stuck in the 50’s. 16 year old kids would be better snipers and war game strategists than a bunch of squaddies playing shootem ups on hankley common.

You sound like a petty stockbroker living in Surrey who thinks he is above those who need to use exercise areas rather than those who want to use them. Looking down your nose at those who use your desired playground to train to stay alive is unpleasant to say the least.

Pants, you’re in the Army, the ACU, you build trails and organise races on this land. Are you gonna stop that? Becasuse as such your actions are a significant part of the problem

Not sure whether attempting irony or being bone. Poor use of smileys confusing issue.

“There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright”

This is the issue. Seeing as Population is increasing in south especially and services and are being streches why not move the trooPs out ?

surely the MOD can get a good rate for the bases and develop them into housing and retain most of the land.

This is the issue. Seeing as Population is increasing in south especially and services and are being streches why not move the trooPs out ?

surely the MOD can get a good rate for the bases and develop them into housing and retain most of the land.

Yes, read up on Bordon Eco Town for what happens when they try to do exactly this…

I suspect the Trolls will be reducing their use of the land esp on the larger rides.

Having said that I guess some folk will still be nipping out to ride those fire roads on the way to Swimley.

Gorrick will, i guess continue to use the land they book.

“There are five times as many troops in Aldershot-Camberley-Deepcut-Pirbright”

This is the issue.
What issue? The military has been in these areas for a very long time and it serves them well with all of the area that they own. Why would they move?
Do you really want the military to disappear and the areas to be developed, because that’s what would happen. Rather than becoming some kind of leisure Mecca it would be covered in red brick houses in very short order, I’ll guarantee you that.

TooTall- “You sound like a petty stockbroker living in Surrey who thinks he is above those who need to use exercise areas rather than those who want to use them. Looking down your nose at those who use your desired playground to train to stay alive is unpleasant to say the least. “

I wish I was a petty stockbroker. If I was I’d buy a hundred acres of forest thus not need to cross MOD land.

Ive grown up around this area and have used MOD land since a kid (now in my late thirties). Im more hacked off about the MOD’s attitude towards dog walkers than MTBers. They go around highlighting dog poo with luminous spray paint and write ridiculous letters to local residents threatening closure because the troops dont like lying down in poo on night exercise.

All Im trying to say is that from local residents point of view, vast amounts of the land is UNUSED for 90% of the time, no matter what the MOD may say or think. Do they really need it, no I think they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes.

If anything the use is going to drop as troop numbers will reduce over the next 10-50 years due to more use of technology and systems that mitigate the need to put soldiers lives at risk, something both the UK and US have learned to their detriment in the current “war” if you can really call it that (more like using war as an excuse for natural resource grabbing).

There can be reasonable half way house to this constant public vs MOD conflict, its just whitehall needs to haul itself into the twenty first century and ditch the stiff upper lip.

vast amounts of the land is UNUSED for 90% of the time

Whilst I agree that the land isn’t used all the time, 90% is a big number. They wouldn’t use the land much more as there is a need to manage it environmentally as well. Would you be OK with their presence if they used the areas more then?

Im more hacked off about the MOD’s attitude towards dog walkers than MTBers.

You think that soldiers lying down in dog crap is acceptable then? Writing letters to locals would seem a reasonable first response in an effort to rectify the situation. What would you prefer to see happen?

Do they really need it, no I think they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes.

This is reviewed on a continual basis and the estate is under massive pressure to reduce in size. However, bringing the troops back from Germany means troops need to exercise more in the UK, so more pressure on areas. The MoD is actively moving to different locations to make best use of other resources IOT free up other areas. That will just be built on in the future.

If anything the use is going to drop as troop numbers will reduce over the next 10-50 years due to more use of technology and systems that mitigate the need to put soldiers lives at risk

No it won’t. It might change, but it won’t reduce.

whitehall needs to haul itself into the twenty first century and ditch the stiff upper lip

About what? Stopping their users lying in dog crap? Preventing innocent (ignorant?) people wandering around during dangerous military exercises? Simple health and safety and duty of care – nothing else there.

Once again, this just highlights the fact that we don’t have a credible national organisation to represent us. 🙁

Why dont the resident just pick their shit up then FFS? Conflict over.
Your attitude completely baffles me. **** it, I hope they properly ban you.

As regards shit, I’m quite sure the Army get caught short whilst on exercise!

they could reduce their land grabbing by 30-40% and still have adequate cover for training purposes

Could you post a link to how this has been calculated. I’m sure MoD would love to reduce their land management overheads by this much.

Cg, they do. Dozens of portaloos are scattered around tunnel hill.
Complete with pink fluffy bog paper. 😀

As regards shit, I’m quite sure the Army get caught short whilst on exercise!

Not round Aldershot. Digging toilets is prohibited in most areas because of conservation requirements, hence the portaloos in random places!

Without lowering the tone, are you telling me that in the middle of an exercise, they put their hand up and ask to be excused? 😀

Seriously?

DNA test all the dogs in the area so they know which house the dog crap came from and then just post it back though the letterbox…

Once again, this just highlights the fact that we don’t have a credible national organisation to represent us.

We tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined
CTC Tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined

Without lowering the tone, are you telling me that in the middle of an exercise, they put their hand up and ask to be excused?

Exercises cover all sorts of tasks, it’s not all hiding in a ditch for a week! Do you put your hand up at work and ask to go to the toilet? 🙂

Not sure whether attempting irony or being bone. Poor use of smileys confusing issue.

Telling the truth!
Smileys because I know Pants very well and I don’t want to sound like I’m having a pop at him…. Just asking the question!

Pants, Shortcut, me , Cinnamon Girl and a fair few others here, we’re all locals, we’ve all had a hand in promoting these trails and in many cases actually building them (There’s actually one called “Pants way down”….!)

I’m just fixing the whole situation a bit odd. There’s no way on this earth this land will be fenced off. Aint never gonna happen. If it does, people will be through it like a rat up a drainpipe.
Equally, only a TINY FRACTION of the people that ride on it will ever be asked to leave. (Has anybody actually been fined?)
It’s too open. It has rights of way across it which CANNOT be blocked by the MOD, or anyone else, there’s too many people been using it for too many years for too many things. The worst thing the MOD can ever hope to do is plough the trails up. And as we know, more will spring up, and if it’s for ‘conservation reasons’ then the Army will have to stop crawling through it and digging holes in it too!

Making people aware of Army usage and everyone getting on together (There’s some twits about) is the key. We already know this. TAG was set up to help for just this reason

To me it sounds like someone’s got a bee in their bonnet, nowt more, nowt less.

Perhaps we should merely concentrate on our own behaviours? Surely the most important thing to do here is to avoid unnecessary confrontation. As much as I find some of the MOD arguments strange re usage stats on Hankley, I’m only seeing it from my experience. But there are two things that and I, and the rest of us can do, to ease the situation. Show consideration when riding and dog walking. There is no excuse for bad Mtb behaviour towards the military as has been suggested earlier and that is easy to eradicate. I am innocent here but guilty on the second charge re dog mess. Always take bags on local areas but have been a little lazy when it comes to more open places like Hankley. There really is no excuse and I need to adjust my behaviour (which I have done there recently) and carry bags and dispose of mess correctly at all times. There is no excuse and to do otherwise is simple selfish and inconsiderate. So lesson learned. Lets all just do the same and calm the situation down. It is in our control – no excuses if we fail on our side.

CG one of the things the army could do is to ensure that ration packs are taken away. Even the green ones (!) are litter and there is lots of it in the obvious bivvi sites around Hankley. I can forgive flare canisters but basic litter is in the same category as my dog’s mess. Easily avoidable.

cinnamon_girl – Member
Without lowering the tone, are you telling me that in the middle of an exercise, they put their hand up and ask to be excused?

Seriously?

Seriously. As mentioned above, you’re not allowed to dig on a number of these areas so portaloos are essential.

And contrary to what some people who have no idea what they are talking about above seem to think, the areas are in constant usage and an exercise area dotted with poo holes is not a good place to train. That said, no doubt Variflex will be along in a minute to tell us to man up and crawl through it like the dog eggs which seem to be everywhere.

I can confirm I’ve seen the chaps going to a portaloo when needed. Only issue is that you think you know where you are because of portaloos, but they are everywhere!!! Almost a Dr.Who episode in there somewhere….killer portaloos munching on unsuspecting cyclists…in dark forests….hmmmmm

I suspect the Trolls will be reducing their use of the land esp on the larger rides.

Having said that I guess some folk will still be nipping out to ride those fire roads on the way to Swimley.

Gorrick will, i guess continue to use the land they book.

So no real change then. As I thought.
I certainly won’t stop using them, although it’s rare I’m home long enough to ride there right now, and that will be the same until the Autumn I think. 🙁

A properly dug and maintained trail is always better:

Keeps most riders to the trail and just the trail
A trail that can be steered through safe areas
Improves the militarys image in sharing the property with the residents
Is there to use for military types for fitness and leisure

As regards public rights of way being closed – yes they can. I now live near Salisbury Plain and some ROWs are closed when exercises are taking place. The signs are red and state this.

Believe it or not there is actually a BOAT that crosses the Plain from North to South, it’s also part of the National Cycle Network.

Going back to the area in question, I would say there has been some naivety involved and thus has now backfired. 🙄

As regards public rights of way being closed – yes they can. I now live near Salisbury Plain and some ROWs are closed when exercises are taking place. The signs are red and state this.

Not permenantly though CG.
Can’t be done. Wont happen. They can grizzle all they like but they can’t do jack shit about it.

Do those squaddies not have elsans? That’s what we used on dartmoor and Woodbury etc.

ROW can be closed – there are routes on MOD land that this happens on, but only in a small number of rare circumstances, such as live firing

There’s no suggestion that anyone is even considering this in the area though, other than by a bunch of scaremongering arses who kicked off the Hankley issue, (notably, the MBR article originally posted quoted significantly from that site) who if you now read have backed off from most of the claims they were making a few weeks ago…

Reading between the lines, now a little more information has come through, this seems to be a quite simple issue – and we’ve seen it before – of informal and responsible mountain biking being (more than) tolerated by a landowner who has no duty to do so for years, and a small minority of riders acting deliberately irresponsibly and provocatively, and putting the whole thing at risk for everyone.

Its us as a community who should be policing this and making it clear to the troublemakers that their actions have a knock on effect for the rest of us.

TAG has been set up to help MTBers with the access issue, so help and support TAG as it will help and support you.

Alot is in the pipeline for the good and benefit of all.

Good to hear pants.

We tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined
CTC Tried, hardly any mountain bikers joined

What? Mountain bikers join an organisation? That’s not rad or gnarly dude. Mountain biking culture has grown up on a culture of unlimited freedom to do what you like. Even if that means wrecking land that doesn’t belong to you. While the majority of sensible bikers take this “culture” with a pinch of salt, there’s a minority who take it to the nth degree.

Its us as a community who should be policing this and making it clear to the troublemakers that their actions have a knock on effect for the rest of us.

In my neck of the woods policing has worked to a point, informing people of the consequences of their actions and they have modified their behavior, unfortunately there is still a minority who while aware of the consequences of their actions on others, don’t give a ****.

ROW can be closed – there are routes on MOD land that this happens on, but only in a small number of rare circumstances, such as live firing

So not here then. As I said.

This ‘issue’ (if there really is one) boils down to 2 things:

1) Race organisers being greedy and short sighted
2) The army trying to throw their weight around

Now, I’ve been riding these area on and off for 20+ years. I’ve heard it all before, many times.

So I’ll tell you what, I’ll bookmark this thread and we’ll come back to it in a year or so to see how it pans out shall we?

I say bugger all will change. I might be wrong. But I doubt it. 🙂

@PP You knew it would come!!!

The issue is NOT “Greedy Race Organisers” or The Army trying to “Throw it’s weight around”

Race organisers pay to be on the land to put on races for Mountain Bikers which is not cheep or easy to do as all would do it!

Its is MoD land and the Army have a right to be there to train, if they really turned the screw they would not allow peeps on whilst the Army is training.

“Fences” will never happen, we will see, as funding is being sought. Pirbright and Barossa fences are fine and have been for years!

The issue is riders being inconsiderate whilst on MoD land, the growing population around Mod training areas, house building etc and more people taking up Riding!

GRENADE!!!!!

we will see

We will indeed.

Like I said, I’ll dig this thread up in a year or so.

While the event organisers may not be greedy, the fact that the MoD allow events to be held on their land does increase the number of people that ride on that land at a later date. If there is a problem then the MOD need to stop allowing events on land where there is a problem. It may not stop the issue of illegal riding, but it will certainly help.

I am fairly sure I have seen a MoD report that says that for historic and public relation reasons the land could never be closed to the public.

While the event organisers may not be greedy, the fact that the MoD allow events to be held on their land does increase the number of people that ride on that land at a later date.

True. The Gorrick race at Porridgepot just before Xmas last year made a huge difference. Most weeks before (and again recently to be honest) I saw nobody – riders or army, and I ride there and Tunnel several hours a week. The week after the race you couldn’t move for people following the trails.

That could partly have been because everyone was off work due to it being Xmas!

Agreed there is always more traffic immediately after an event, but it tends to die off again.

The rise of the internet and particularly GPS means that most bits of land with good trails quickly get publicised these days, so people can ride far more places without needing willing locals to show them around. I’m not saying that is necessarily a bad thing, but its a phenomenon that won’t go away. “Secret” trails are a lot rarer than they used to be.

Pete – I think you’re wrong to characterise race organisers as greedy. Putting on races is time-intensive and doesn’t generate vast amounts of cash.

Good venues are hard to find, and it happens that most good venues round here are on MOD land. Events on MOD land are always vulnerable to being bumped at short notice by training needs deemed more urgent. This makes them even less lucrative than non-MOD venues, due to the extra work in finding an alternate venue at the last minute.