c) An SLR is a pain in the butt to carry around
really ? I think you're trying to put it in the wrong place PP 
For a fact I rarely notice mine when I'm riding, it's just there when I want it (and I always do)
d) They need commitment to learn how to use them
what, you mean a bit like riding a bike ? Perhaps you follow the Homer Simpson philosophy "If it's hard don't try" ?
Mainly due to much less megapixels. The 14MP G10 is now 10MP in the G11.
Ah, the megapixel myth. Unless you're making poster-sized prints or doing large crops, 6 mpx is more than sufficient, especially with the 'quality' of lens you'll have on any compact. If you don't believe me, go and have a look for pics taken with the lowly 2 mpx iPhone on Flickr, then compare to those taken with a 14mpx G10. You will probably be quite surprised!
As for the EP1 @ ISO3200, well, I guess it's OK at post-card size, but then so's pretty much everything else....
The point about the less megapixels is not to perpetuate the myth of the more megapixels the better. It was to highlight how Canon had improved sensor noise which you state to be a significant improvement over the older G10.
It's fairly obvious 14MP from a compact sized sensor is OTT when larger sensor sizes were at the 12MP to 14MP mark. Consequently, the G10 suffered from noise at ISOs of 200 and above. The designers of the G11 just went for the quick win. And there is nothing wrong with that but it isn't a significant improvement. It's an admission of "we got it wrong".
it's OK at post-card size
It's a DSLR sensor in a compact body... What is there not to like?
if you'll pardon me, a "DSLR sensor" without the reflex optics is just a sensor - and don't get me started on the dubious ergonomics of arms-length camera operation without a viewfinder...
sfb. Pedant as always.
I've seen an LCD viewfinder can be attached to the GF1 and a direct view one on the EP1.
Not as good as proper SLR viewfinders but liveview is all the rage these days!
really ? I think you're trying to put it in the wrong place PP For a fact I rarely notice mine when I'm riding, it's just there when I want it (and I always do)
I have carried mine on my chest like you do until I got my flash last week. That's now impractical, so it all goes on my back, and I'm looking at better ways than just stuffing it all in a CamelBak HAWG, without a case...
what, you mean a bit like riding a bike ? Perhaps you follow the Homer Simpson philosophy "If it's hard don't try" ?
Yes you're right there of course, but lots of people don't really have the inclinaton to learn like you or I do, and IMO a compact would be just as good, and more practical. That's all I'm saying
sfb. Pedant as always.
no, I think it's a valid point. The sensor doesn't make the DSLR, it's the mechanics and optics, and taking those away is a huge, significant difference, not a trivial distinction
I've seen an LCD viewfinder can be attached to the GF1 and a direct view one on the EP1.
pay extra for something very nasty ??
nuff said:
Christ, I agree with SFB! How on earth you're supposed to use a decent camera and hold it steady at arms length is a mystery to me
And just because you can shoot at ISO3200 doesn't mean you should. The tiny 4/thirds sensor is not very good with noise compared to a full frame, none of them are. Even the D700 or 5D full frame can be grainy over ISO400 if you print big enough. Yes high ISOs can get you photos you otherwise wouldn't have managed, but MPX counts are really fairly meaningless as you can't blow them up to any size because of the noise. Add noise sharpening and you lose sharpness. Ultimately, good photography needs good light, and fancy pretend-slrs really won't get you much further than a decent compact for quick shots in low light. An expensive SLR is a different matter, but as discussed, a 2nd hand 5D is not the most convenient bit of kit for riding with...
zokes what are you on about? You don't seem to be able to write a coherent argument. Either that or you have a problem with the comprehension.
I've never mentioned a four-thirds sized sensor in comparison to a full-sized sensor. I don't think any sensor compares well against a full frame sensor in terms of noise. Instead, I've made the comparison of a G11 against an EP1.
And yes - fancy pretend-slrs - will get you further than a compact. Why not? Read the reviews. Make an informed statement.
The sensor doesn't make the DSLR, it's the mechanics and optics
Actually, I'd say its just the mechanics.
How about a panasonic G1, can be had for under £700 with 2 lenses, this will give you a viewfinder, 3" swivel screen, 28-400mm coverage, compact body etc...
Quality is good, lenses are very good for the money and the whole thing is compact.
The sensor doesn't make the DSLR, it's the mechanics and opticsActually, I'd say its just the mechanics.
by optics I meant mirror/pentaprism/eyepiece
zokes what are you on about? You don't seem to be able to write a coherent argument. Either that or you have a problem with the comprehension.
the trouble with this kind of comment is that it may be your own comprehension at fault
barnes, have you stopped sulking then.
so what is your choice....please
the trouble with this kind of comment is that it may be your own comprehension at fault
Maybe. But definitely not.
(Again) My sis in law is pro photographer in NZ, has DSLR's and large formats, lenses coming out her ears, but the camera she carries with her all the time and on hols is a Canon G10.
Another friend is 'semi pro' (is sells pics, but not main living, does weddings, events etc), and again despite having a good DSLR and lenses, the G6(?) she has seems to go everywhere with her, so takes more of her shots.
My father in law just bought a G11 and its a super bit of kit, takes ace pictures and just goes everywhere with him.
I'd go for an SLR because of the optical view finder personally. It's pretty hard to shoot moving stuff without one.
As for which brand... well I went Sony mainly for in body stabilisation. But I imagine you'd be happy with any dSLR. If size is an issue Olympus might be worth a look.
so what is your choice....please
I wasn't sulking Tony! If you care to buy/borrow a suitable Nikon lens I can lend you my old D200 body to try out if you want?
simon, i am going looking for a camera tonight, i will keep that in mind.
cheers.
Im downsizing from a D80 to Panny GF1, want some thing light to carry around with me, as opposed to lugging the D80 and assorted kit every where.
Would'nt recommend carrying a dSlr on a bike as mentioned, they dont like conditions that are too muddy/dusty/wet etc.
Like the look of the panny, plus it'll shot HD video as well so no need to carry D80 and a video camera.
Just need to sort out pricing for D80 and get it advertised.
I've got a D80 with 18-135 kit lens and to be honest it's quite bulky for lugging around while riding.
Mate has the D60 with 18-105VR & although it doesn't look THAT much smaller, it feels quite a lot more manageable on a ride.
Have you thought about how you were going to carry it? I bought a Think Tank Digital Holster (the smallest 10 model) and the chest harness.
The holster comes with waterproof cover & loads of other bits - and the chest harness is pretty indiscreet, and plenty adjustable to get it set-up how you want it. You're looking at £50 for the lot - well worth it, I reckon as you can have the camera out & ready in about 5 secs.
For biking/mucking about = Canon G9/10/11 (whichever you think best in the trade off between brand new technology and bargain price for last year's model.)
For anything else, as couldawoulda said, Canon 5D Mk1. I have one and *have* used it on the bike, but not off-road. It's just too big and heavy for taking on rides, but is a great camera nonetheless for everything else.
@Stumpy; another vote for the Think Tank stuff. It's top quality, and does the trick of keeping an SLR stable, well protected and dry.
Still wouldn't want my 5D on my chest on a rocky ride though... YMMV.
SFB
For someone who uses their fancy pentprism DSLR with amazing sensor on Program mode you don't half talk a lot of twoddle.
SfB is totally ignoring superior quality cameras without mirrors or pentaprisms, that have taken some of the most iconic photos in the hands of some of the world's greatest photographers, ie Leica's. Or are you saying a Leica is crap 'cos it's not an SLR? I truly hope you're not, otherwise you leave yourself open to even more ridicule than usual. The Panasonic GL1 is a stunning camera, perfect for the sort of use Ton wants it for. The additional viewfinder that you maintain is crap is totally electronic and driven from the hotshoe, and is no different to the sort of viewfinder found on a classic Leica, other than it carries more shooting info. I stopped taking photos years ago because my Contax 139's were bulky and one got damaged carrying it on the bike. I only started again five years ago with a CoolPix 5200, then a Lumix TZ3, which has taken thousands of pics. I recently bought a Nikon D60, but I truly lust after that Panny, it's the perfect camera for me, compact, unobtrusive for use at gigs, swappable lenses, DSLR sized sensor, what's not to like? I'm almost tempted to sell a bike to fund one. Ton, look at the GL1, I think it ticks every box on your wants list.
Or are you saying a Leica is crap 'cos it's not an SLR?
don't be silly and put ridiculous words into my mouth!
You can take fantastic shots with a friggin box Brownie. It's just harder.
The additional viewfinder that you maintain is crap is totally electronic and driven from the hotshoe, and is no different to the sort of viewfinder found on a classic Leica
please stop saying Leica when it isn't one. I have yet to see a good electronic v/f - even my D300's live view is laggy/jaggy compared to the 0.5nS delay of the mirror path. And wouldn't a Leica viewfinder be a) optical b)rangefinder ?
I'm not talking about Art but practical everyday photography. If you're happy with simpler, less well specified (and lighter) cameras, all well and good, I never said they were rubbish, only that I find the sheer handlability of a proper DSLR hard to resist, particularly if you want to get a shot in difficult conditions.
For someone who uses their fancy pentprism DSLR with amazing sensor on Program mode you don't half talk a lot of twoddle.
I don't see the correlation. If you have time to fiddle with the settings then bully for you. Most of the time I don't so I'm content for the electronics to make the guesses for me - I can always bracket if I need to in much less time. Also I'm slightly aphasic (or whatever) and I know from long experience that if I adjust the settings I instantly forget that I have and take another 50 shots at something silly so it's best not to try.
I think you've got to look at the reality of the situation. I took my DSLR (Oly E420 with pancake) out on a group ride at Afan. I thought I could get some arty shots or some action shots along the route. The truth is I/we were going along at such a pace - if I we had to keep stopping for every photo-taking op. it would have annoyed everyone.
I should have just brought my high-end compact which could have done just as well for the pictures I took.
Remember - you're out riding and not on a Seb Rogers photoshoot.
And that's why I've pointed towards micro four-thirds. Smaller, lighter and capable cameras - that's what I would look for in a riding camera.
A compromise? Yes. But it's undeniably a very good one.
I should have just brought my high-end compact which could have done just as well for the pictures I took.
do you mean to shoot as you ride ?
Remember - you're out riding and not on a Seb Rogers photoshoot.
all my rides are sfb photoshoots The chest pack means it takes a few seconds to get the camera out and ready to shoot.
HTTP404:
zokes what are you on about? You don't seem to be able to write a coherent argument. Either that or you have a problem with the comprehension.I've never mentioned a four-thirds sized sensor in comparison to a full-sized sensor. I don't think any sensor compares well against a full frame sensor in terms of noise. Instead, I've made the comparison of a G11 against an EP1.
And yes - fancy pretend-slrs - will get you further than a compact. Why not? Read the reviews. Make an informed statement.
The irony being your username is an error for something that isn't there. How very apt...
Read reviews? Great! I know, I'll believe what someone paid to review a camera by the manufacturer, and pretty much just repeats the spec sheet in prose says 
FWIW, having read a few reviews of these, the performance is no better than the G11 at high ISO. Not what the reviews say, but what the pictures taken in the reviews say. Having seriously considered the EP-1, and having handled one in the shop (with a view to also being able to use my old OM lenses on it), it's pretty much impossible to hold steady with anything zoomish at arms length. You therefore have to bump the ISO up to compensate for camera shake. The G11 has an optical viewfinder, is much easier to hold steady, and therefore doesn't need to go as high ISO. To top it off, the G11 does have a small internal flash - where's that on the EP-1? If you have to carry a flash too, you may as well just go for a real DSLR with a pop-up one!
Bottom line is it looks like a lovely toy, because that's what it is - a toy. You're very limited on the lenses you can attach, simply from a holding it steady point of view. Whilst it's undoubtedly got access to better lenses than the one on the G11, how often are you ever going to reproduce prints of a size where you can see that?
You can have the best camera in the world, but if it's on the shelf at home when you get the opportunity for the best picture, then it's useless. For the OP, a very good compact sounds like the best option, unless like SFB, you're happy lugging an SLR case on the front of your camelbak. If you're going for an SLR, get a proper one, which will be infinitely more flexible than the pen-style ones that seem to be cropping up for no discernible reason. Alternatively, get something like the G9 (arguably better than the G10, and lots cheaper than the G11), and spend the rest on going somewhere to take great pictures!
Zokes? a name seen on many a high-end mountain bike...
Whilst I applaud your camera technique - I do assume you have the full use of both arms and both elbow joints therefore allowing you to negate the use of full arms length.
You therefore have to bump the ISO up to compensate for camera shake
erm.. in-camera stabilization or a steady hand? Take your pick. The EP1 has both and the GF1 has the latter.
I don't see why you would try and fit old OM lenses onto a Micro 4/3 body? That's like buying a Scott Scale and kitting it out for full-on downhill.
FWIW, I rarely use a long zoom lens. So won't have the troubles you talk about. The older 35mm lenses are far larger and heavier than the four-thirds lens. Which in turn are larger and heavier than the micro four-thirds. Which would understandably adversely affect the camera's handing.
The GF1 has the advantage of built-in flash. The EP1 has the image stabilization and some very good noise reduction.
I'm not disagreeing with you either. For the OP a high-end compact is the answer - the latest generation of high-end compact.
Your argument about better optics but never seeing the benefit smacks in the face of all things photographic. You should aim for the best optics possible and then bring all other factors into the equation. Never ignore optics.
Compact optical viewfinders are fine. But they have their pitfalls also. Ricoh GX200, Panasonic LX3, Sigma DP2 all great high-end cameras. But guess what? They all don't have optical viewfinders.
What you do is fail to mention the advantages of composing a shot on the screen. For instance, the GF1 has true DOF preview in addition to shutter blur preview.
Handling like a compact but operating akin to an SLR with a DSLR sized sensor (:-) to sfb) is all too good. And is worth investigating for the OP.
Zokes? a name seen on many a high-end mountain bike...
About 12 years ago when Marzocchi made them, before selling the brand name, yes, they were...
The older 35mm lenses are far larger and heavier than the four-thirds lens. Which in turn are larger and heavier than the micro four-thirds. Which would understandably adversely affect the camera's handing.
Really? they look huge...
in-camera stabilization or a steady hand?
Steady hand and IS, which is what you get with a camera you don't have to hold away from your body
All I'm saying is the EP-1 just seems to be a very expensive fashion statement of a toy. For the money you can get a far superior proper dSLR, or a top-end compact, both of which you can hold properly, frame your shots better, and just generally offer better value for money.
All I'm saying is the EP-1 just seems to be a very expensive fashion statement of a toy.
The GF1 and EP1 are both allegedly very good toys.
The Canon G-series are also very good toys that have also sold well on the back of many a "paid" review.
For me, micro four-thirds is a little prohibitive at its current price point and the new G11 is not too far off the said fashion statements.
G10 offers value for money but if I could afford to push the boat out a bit or have an inkling for a more expansive and dare I say creative system ....
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