Re-built a mates wheel.. « Singletrack Forum

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Re-built a mates wheel..

78 posts & 35 voices | Started 1 year ago by R.lepecha | Latest reply from muppetWrangler

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bullheart - Member

I think everyone here has tried, albeit in a gentle and sensitive way, to help you understand the basic principles behind being paid for providing a service. Your responses are fairly typical of a young person, but no less annoying. So I'd suggest the following;

You were paid for a job. Your job wasn't good enough. Regardless as to whether your mate was out on the trail, or just bobbing along the road, the wheel went out of kilter just after you built it for him. If the same happened in a shop I'd be back like a shot. If you want to play at being a wheel builder, don't take money for it and fiddle around with your own wheels, not putting others at risk with your ego.

Why are you looking everywhere else for an explanation? Why not start with yourself; did you make any mistakes? Is there anything you've overlooked? The bottom line is that in receiving payment you become a service provider, so you are accountable for the quality of your work. I've been teaching long enough to know that kids like you simply don't have the ability to self-assess - you look for other variables as an excuse. Do you really believe that it couldn't possibly be your fault? Honestly?

And what's all this 'parents' crap? Are you kidding? Seriously? Are you going to wheel that one out whenever you screw up in the future - "...Er, yeah, the car crash couldn't possibly have been my fault because my parents wouldn't let me take the car out if they thought I'd prang it..." You sound like Vicky Pollard. Man up.

Give your mate his money back. Let him take his wheel to someone who's paid to do it and good at it. Learn from experience.

EDIT:

I realise this sounds harsh, but sugar-coating the facts will not help you. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I'm off to shout at some year 10's...

Posted 1 year ago #
boblo - Member

Bullheart=less coffee for you in the staff room young man

It's beyond giving the money back now IMO. Strictly speaking, he's contracted to do the job and should make good the mess so far....

Bailing out because it's getting too difficult is not an option. Perhaps Mummy could help as she's such an authority on wheel building?

That last bit was just messing but sort it out, he's a friend remember?

Posted 1 year ago #
xiphon - Member

Bottom line - get more experience before you start charging for your services.... and don't charge your friends for building!

Whenever I have built some wheels for friends, we actually sat down together and went through the process as they wanted to start learning...

I'm far from an expert, but all it takes is one gentle push in the right direction, and people gain the confidence to try building themselves.

Posted 1 year ago #
buzz-lightyear - Member

I charged him because time aint free

So you don't mind if we each charge you £2 for the free advice then? Do you also charge your gf for a quickie?

Here's some more free advice: Reconsider your mercenary attitude to life. Give your time and help to friends and family for free. Give him his money back and apologise.

Posted 1 year ago #
Brown - Member

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

(But if it's gone out so badly out that it's rubbing on the frame already than either he's had a huge crash (hint - does he have blood all over his face) or the build wasn't up to scratch... Sorry.)

Posted 1 year ago #
smell_it - Member

Give him his money back and get an application in for customer relations at Superstar.

Posted 1 year ago #
wwaswas - Member

I think we won't get any more from the OP 'til school finishes now.

My 2p - even if the OP did nothing wrong he's got a moral duty to give a refund and it might be educational to accompany his mate to a bike shop and see what their view of the cause of the problem is.

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

R.lepecha - Member
Yes there is difference between knowing how to do it and having the skill to do it...

I wasn't having a go at you, but it's important to recognise the difference. I sympathise with your predicament - at your age I was buying dud road bikes, fixing them up and selling them. I gave a 3 month no questions money back guarantee.

Talk to any bike shop and you'll be amazed at how much damage a bike can sustain "just riding along".

The probability is your mate is a lying skunk and is doing you. You've just got to swallow it and get on with life. He's a customer, the sort you don't want. Give him his money back and send him to a bike shop.

Price your work to allow for having to do it again a % of the times because no matter how well you do it, someone will break it and then come back with a JRA.

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

did you make any mistakes? Is there anything you've overlooked?

I checked it and my dad checked it(he also rides bikes, has ridden them for the best part of his life)

He also thought the wheel was built properly.

I am going to re-true said wheel tonight and if he comes back again with it knocked out I will refund and tell him to take it elsewhere.

Posted 1 year ago #
wwaswas - Member

out of interest how did he break the hub?

if the rim was badly out of true/damaged at the same time you'll never be able to build it back up so it stays straight and spoke tension will be all over the place.

Posted 1 year ago #
younggeoff - Member

Just out of interest what did you use to check spoke tensions?

I've been building wheels for too long to remember and I never charge mates form doing their wheels, if they decide to get me a few beers in return all the better. I agree with many that 3 wheels is not enough to start charging for your service and as such you should've been doing it for the experience

Posted 1 year ago #
Del - Member

I am going to re-true said wheel tonight and if he comes back again with it knocked out I will refund and tell him to take it elsewhere.

correct approach.
without wishing to put your dad down, he might ride bikes, but unless he's built wheels, his opinion is as good as anyone else....
also, go read what sheldon brown has written about relieving tension in spokes, as previously suggested.

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

Had a read of the Sheldon Brown article, He says ''Some wheelbuilders do this by flexing the whole wheel'' to tension the spokes, I did that did I not? Jumping on the rim seems like a decent amount of flexing of the rim...

Posted 1 year ago #
Cheeky Monkey - Member

Jumping on the rim seems like a good way to un-pretzel a wheel in an emergency situation out on the trail, so you can get home. Otherwise it seems a bit over the top to relieve the tension. When most folks I've seen have done wheels they've just used upper body weight and pushed against the floor.

You can tighten bolts by jumping on a long handled spanner but it's a pretty crap idea and is more likely to damage them than prove everything is OK.

Time might not be free but then again money doesn't change hand without obligations

Posted 1 year ago #
walleater - Member

I already charged him beforehand, too young for beers after a ride....

What? I was swapping fork services for meth-amphetamine when I was ten years old!

Posted 1 year ago #
thomthumb - Member

i have built around 8 wheels for myself. I wouldn't dream of charging anyone for my time/ skills. I would be pleased that they gave me another wheel to hone my skills on.

give the lad his tenner back.

Posted 1 year ago #
tinytimbo - Member

Here is what I suggest matey. True the wheel back up for him and thn go out a decent off road ride with him. Get him to do his normal riding and maybe a few bunny hops and jumps.
If the wheel is still perfectly straight after a couple of hours then it's fair to say you have done a decent job.

If however the wheel is like an egg I think you need to give you matey his money back and apologise.

If your mate does a 10 foot drop off though as part of his normal riding then maybe it is he who needs to apologise to you.

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

His wheel looks something like (photo of my wheel after crash I spoke about earlier)

I have de-tensioned every spoke as the rim was not pulling back straight. I am going to strip the wheel, try straighten the rim as it is really quite bent then start again.

He was running a 29'er tube in it, could this cause excess stress on the rim?

Posted 1 year ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

Unless that photo is showing an odd perspective I'd say that looks knackered. If it were an emergency get you home measure I'd try straightening it out but as a long termer I'd not bother, new rim.

Posted 1 year ago #
roblane65 - Member

It can take years to become fully skilled in a proffesion or trade so after buiding a few wheels doesn't make you a wheelbuilder.If you new as much as you think you know you wouldn't be asking why/what happened on here would you? just my point of view btw it's only by making mistakes that we learn.but one that doesn't involve cost is a bit easier to swallow.

Posted 1 year ago #
coffeeking - Member

Unless that photo is showing an odd perspective I'd say that looks knackered. If it were an emergency get you home measure I'd try straightening it out but as a long termer I'd not bother, new rim.

Assuming thats not de-tensioned and the builder has some skill I'd say that was recoverable,

I've built a fair few wheels of my own now, never had one fail even used in trials bikes with my 100kg on top. Still wouldnt charge a mate to build one and love the chance to pass on the techniques to mates over a drink/evening. I used to build the odd one for a bike shop and never had one returned, but my skills were nothing on the pro builder we called in for "good" wheelsets.

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

I'd have to disagree there, it;s fine if the spokes are not damaged. My current wheelset has spokes in from 1996 that have been used in 4 wheels, none of which failed or de-trued despite alpine fun and my lack of skill lol. Paid servie though - new spokes, not worth the risk unless specifically demanded.

Posted 1 year ago #
cynic-al - Member

I love how everyone is jumping on the op. Typical stw. Building a wheel for £10 could so easily be described as enterprising and helpful, why not? Totally different to doing so when you're working.

And just because no one has destroyed your wheels doesn't make you a skilled builder.

OP if the rim is not pulling straight then yes the rim is too bent. Straightening it may work, it may not. Give it a go.

No one can know whether the original build was ok or not. All that is required is high and even tension, it's not rocket science. I've destroyed a "properly built" factory wheel by bunny hoppIng on a test ride - it was a crap rim.

Posted 1 year ago #
bassspine - Member

Re-using old spokes rarely works. They lose tension and snap for more easily than new ones.

disagree. IME reused spokes are often easier to get to a consistent tension, as they've already been stress relieved. Reusing old rims is more problematic.

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

OP if the rim is not pulling straight then yes the rim is too bent. Straightening it may work, it may not. Give it a go.

its not quite as bad as the photo, because on that photo with my wheel it was bent lets say half of the wheel, his is 3/4 straight and a section that sits about 1 inch or so out.

I am going to try sort it for him, I did tell him that it may not work though.. Any views on whether the 29er tube could have caused it because of the extra pressure on the section that has the buldge?

Posted 1 year ago #
cynic-al - Member

Ooh I missed that amateur hour gem. It's pish.

Re using old spokes is fine but it helps if you orientate them in the same way as previous and of course clean up the threads.

Re using an old rims is fine if it's straight.

Posted 1 year ago #
holyhutzpa - Member

R.lepecha, it definitely wasn't the 29er tube that did it...

If I were you, I'd both give him the money back and try to fix it. By fixing it you might be able to find out what was wrong. I don't think it's fair to say you earned your 10 quid by taking the cassette and chain off and putting them back on another bike, etc. In this kind of situation it's much more important to prove you're a fair person to do business with than to earn that 10 pounds (and you might get more jobs coming your way if you can fix it and the person is happy with your work) And don't jump on the wheel this time! It isn't meant to withstand 60kg in that direction on the rim! (Kneel beside it and push down with your upper body weight)

Posted 1 year ago #
boblo - Member

cynic-al - Member
Ooh I missed that amateur hour gem.

Ooooooh, the ironing. Has that nastly black scab cleared up yet?

Posted 1 year ago #
cynic-al - Member

Boblo

I've built more wheels than you've had hot dinners. I've also made more functioning brake mounts using carbon fibre than you. I'm happy to try stuff like bodges, but that's different to advising others on the basis of guesswork, hearsay or nonsense.

So stick it up your hoop

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

He now has the wheel back. I striped it, straightened it, spoked up, trued up. Then using the Sheldon Brown method I tensioned all the spokes, then trued again, then tensioned again, then trued again until it stopped being knocked out of true slightly.

Then I went round the rim a few times using the same method to make sure. After that I pushed on the rim round the outside a few times, checked alignment then pushed a few more times.

Spoke tension is pretty even again.

I have definitely done everything by the book this time...

Posted 1 year ago #
epicyclo - Member

Good luck:)

Moral of the story - there's nothing wrong with using old parts like spokes and rims, but if you don't know their history, the results may be unpredictable.

I reuse old spokes and rims, but I wouldn't build a wheel like that for someone else unless they were prepared to accept that.

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

I reuse old spokes and rims, but I wouldn't build a wheel like that for someone else unless they were prepared to accept that.

He knew it was using old spokes and rim.

Posted 1 year ago #
cynic-al - Member

TBH OP it does sound like you know what you are doing.

Posted 1 year ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

Good karma for putting the wheel right.

Did you spot what had caused the wheel to go out of true so quickly?

Posted 1 year ago #
R.lepecha - Member

No I could not pin point the issue. Not quite sure what caused it, I think when the tube was fitted(wrong size) it had about 20-25psi in it and he has bounced the wheel up a curb or something causing a rather large shock through the wheel and maybe unfortunatly it was where the tube bulged and the tyre was even softer at that point. So basically he cracked the rim on something solid without noticing.

Thats the only explanation I could think off. I cannot think of any other valid reason why it would have done what it did.

Its now got a 26 inch tube in it pumped to around 35psi so that should stop any chance of what I said above..

I mean if now its built to the Sheldon Brown ways of doing it I cannot see any reason why the wheel would walk out of line due to a wheel building issue.. I mean after all, Sheldon is a legend of bike maintainence.

Posted 1 year ago #
muppetWrangler - Member

I doubt that the tube itself was a contributing factor although a tyre pressure of 20psi certainly could be if he was riding straight at kerbs without at least unweighting the front end. The important thing is that you did right by your mate and hopefully you can be confident that if he knocks it out of true again that you've not missed anything and that he is a clumsy oaf.

I mean after all, Sheldon is a legend of bike maintainence.

Yep, he certainly was. However following his guidelines doesn't make you or I an expert. It helps us to avoid some of the pitfalls but there is no substitute for years of experience.

Posted 1 year ago #