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Ramblers on Forestry MTB Trails

113 posts & 53 voices | Started 2 years ago by mAx_hEadSet | Latest reply from bintangman

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mAx_hEadSet - Member

I hope that got you attention for a bit of research. Please read on if you ride Trail Centres in Forestry Commission estate.

I am talking with the Forestry in Wales who had the Welsh Assembly make their forests 100% go where you fancy areas for the bobble hats. One would think with all that choice they would find new paths to benefit from the new opportunity that did not impact with other forest uses.

Not so I have had a number of local riders here in North Wales who ride the trail centres a lot and approached me to report / complain that they have encountered very near misses with individual or groups of pedestrians hiking against and with the flow of a route hoping I could do something to stop the danger. These reports appear to specifically identify the Marin as the most likely trail to find this. It of course does not mean the ramblers are deliberately choosing to walk mtb trails they might be walking other paths they find and stumbling across the unmarked mtb trail may choose to follow the line of least resistance unaware of the folly. However in a number of incidents riders say that they having narrowly missed a serious accident stopping to talk to the walkers some will argue because of open access they can go where they want. The Forestry claim they have had no reports of such incidents so do not know how wide an issue it is.
To be fair to FC the Marin trail is in one of the most intensively used forests anywhere. We gave up running mtb xc races in the area to the back of Gwydyr back in the 90's because every man, his wife dog, kids and transit van full of outdoor pursuit centre clients seemed to have every right and reason to pass back and to through the course during the race and the forestry appeared powerless or unwilling to control it.

I would be interested if any riders reading this who have encountered walkers on dedicated MTB trails on 'Forestry Commission' land could name the trail/forest, numbers of walkers, if you stopped to talk, were they aware it was a mtb trail, did they consider they had made a mistake being there or was it their right of way as well. Other stuff like approx date and if you formally reported it to FC would be helpful. This is of specific relevance to England and Wales I believe Scottish Access law has measures to ensure that the rights of access do not apply to dedicated mtb trail.

cheers

Posted 2 years ago #
2hottie - Member

I've had an "issue" on the last drop of the North face trail in the lakes. A family walking down the route with a dog (not on a lead) they seemed surprised when I came speeding round the corner! They looked like the ill informed type from the clothes they were wearing. I advised in passing that this track was a mountain biking route so best not to walk on it. This happened a year or so ago but it's only a matter of time before someone does get hurt badly. Good luck,

2hottie

Posted 2 years ago #
jumping_flea - Member

I have encountered walkers on Follow the dog at Cannock and the last section of the Black at llandegla (the section just after the bridge)

I only spoke to the ones at llandegla as I near wiped myself and thier dog out as I was coming over on of the jumps. - At the time was well p***ed off as it could have been a bad accident. They were not aware that it was an MTB trail.

As you mention above - they do have a right to way where ever they want to. The only thing that would say is that they are putting themselves and riders at risk of an accident.

Posted 2 years ago #
nickc - Member

Met and chap and his young son walking up the final descent on the Wall at Afan. Couple of years ago now. I let him know about the type of trail him was on, and that he'd likely meet bikers coming at him fairly rapidly, he seemed nonplussed.

Seen a few ramblers on the fireroad sections at CYB and BYC as well, but never met any on the trails there.

Posted 2 years ago #
TandemJeremy - Member

In Scotland the situation is not clear. there is provision in the access code to restrict purpose built tracks to particular groups of users but whether this includes mountainbikes trail is unclear.

Posted 2 years ago #
owenfackrell - Member

I have met a couple on the whites climb at Afan but both times they saw me coming and stepped of the trail so i just said thanks and carried on as it seemed clear that tehy knew they were mtb trails and watching out for bikes.

Posted 2 years ago #
ikimbunza - Member

I was riding the 'new' section of trail at Penmachno about six months ago and came across a family having a picnic on the trail. They had clearly been walking along the fireroad as they were about 50m from the junction of the singletrack and fireroad, and had obviously decided to step into the forest on the 'nice little path' and settle down for a bite to eat!

Once i'd made them aware that the trail was a mountain bike route they moved a little further back into the trees but didn't seem that bothered to be honest.

Posted 2 years ago #
BoardinBob - Member

In Scotland the situation is not clear. there is provision in the access code to restrict purpose built tracks to particular groups of users but whether this includes mountainbikes trail is unclear.

IIRC it mentions "land set aside for a specific recreational purpose"

It doesn't specify tennis courts, football pitches, bowling greens etc, but you wouldn't walk across them while they were in use...

Posted 2 years ago #
simonfbarnes - Member

I think it's only safe to assume nothing will be there if the trail is intensively marshalled to keep people/animals/fallen trees off. Even then you might encounter an injured rider.

When they race cars in Grizedale they have a temporary order making it a criminal offense to enter the forest uninvited...

Posted 2 years ago #
mtbfix - Member

Last year we encountered a group of walkers going the 'wrong way' on the Marin trail. They stepped off the trail and we trundled past as we were climbing at the time.

This is the other side of the cheeky trails coin, I guess.

Posted 2 years ago #
foxyrider - Member

Met and chap and his young son walking up the final descent on the Wall at Afan

Yup had quite a few encounter of this when have had trips to afan especially !

Posted 2 years ago #
jonathan - Member

I don't think you want to start rocking the boat with the Scottish access situation - if they declare MTB trails as "land set aside for a specific recreational purpose" then they could start charging for access to it

My local riding (Dalby) involves a lot of "marked" mtb routes, and a lot of other paths and tracks. A couple of bits of the marked routes are actually shared with mapped walks, so there's a reasonable amount of signage warning riders and walkers. I think I've only really encountered walkers on these sections, apart from some locals (ie forest residents) walking their dogs in the evening - but they know exactly where they are and what might be coming round the corner.

Generally the trail signage is pretty clear and seems to work in dissuading walkers, combined with well marked walking routes it seems to work reasonably well. I know that the FC has been defending against a claim from a walker who was in a collision with a bike on a fire road (a good while ago now I think), so presumably they've be particularly careful with the signage etc.

It's a tricky situation as as well as voluntarily declaring all the land it owns as access land (note not all the land it manages) most forests also essentially have permissive rights for cyclists (and horse riders) throughout the path and tracks. So keeping riders and walkers safe is important, but any push for some sort of complete separation could be counter productive in the long term.

Definitely a case for "gently discouraging" walkers away from dangerous spots, rather than blocking access (which would legally be extremely difficult anyway).

Posted 2 years ago #
epicyclo - Member

Difficult isn't it?

If we want access, then others have the same rights.

I'd sooner have open access and ride accordingly (ie expecting anything around the corner) than end up restricted to a few dedicated playgrounds.

I suppose it's down to whether you use your bike to get out in the country or as a toy for playing racers on (not a criticism of racing - it's fun).

Posted 2 years ago #
Spud - Member

CYB - Tarw, Dragons Back
Sherwood Pines - Kitchener, Adventure, Family
Kielder - Red

It's quite scary coming face-to-face with someone who you don't expect to be there and the thought of what could have happened if you had been seconds later/ not quick enough on the brakes.

Posted 2 years ago #
mark_b - Member

About 2 years ago i talked to a couple of orienteers who were walking round Stainburn with the mountain bike tracks marked on their map. Having said that looking at their website the map isn't listed as available so maybe they realised the folly of running an event where user conflict could arise.

Discussed it with other trail builders at the time but don't know if it made it back to the FE. Not sure if they were aware it was a bike track but seeing as how they were standing next to the north shore at the time it would have been difficult to argue otherwise !

Posted 2 years ago #
Stoner - Member

I think there's room for both avenues epicyclo.

The value of the trail centres, to me anyway, is generally having an opportunity to ride a formed trail (designed to provide the best "feel" for MTBing) like the clappers with the benefit of a) knowing that any air will have a transitioned landing zone and b) there wont be anything on the other side of the blind bend. This does of course assume that any fellow MTBer has moved to the side of the trail as soon as possible if they have a mechanical or off - not always a given

The corollory is that when I ride locally (malvern) I ride as a path sharer: I take every corner with the assumption that there will be a 60 year old wheezy woman with 2 yappy Jack Russells on leads 5 yards in opposite directions around her. Many a time I've been strangley accurate in my preparations

Posted 2 years ago #
BoardinBob - Member

If I ride on a designated BIKE trail, I shouldn't expect to meet anyone other than cyclists.

If I ride on a shared use trail, I expect to meet walkers, dogs, horses, cyclists etc.

Posted 2 years ago #
BoardinBob - Member

I'd sooner have open access and ride accordingly (ie expecting anything around the corner) than end up restricted to a few dedicated playgrounds.

Why can't we have both?

Posted 2 years ago #
glenp - Member

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

Posted 2 years ago #
Stoner - Member

As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?
if he hasnt dragged his broken and bloodied body to the side of the trail, he's going to get some 2.1" ignitor tread marks on his back

Posted 2 years ago #
joemarshall - Member

I've come round a corner and had to skid to a halt because there was a person on an obviously borrowed bike riding at about 2mph (at Cannock). I've also come round a corner to find someone has crashed there an(at Coed y Brenin), and was crawling off the middle of the trail. You have to ride so you can safely stop even with just bikers there.

It is a hassle when dog walkers spoil your downhill or whatever, but realistically it only slows you down for a few seconds, not the end of the world - same thing as when you're riding a bike on the road, and someone has to wait behind you for 5 seconds until it's safe to pass.

I don't see that there's much anyone can do other than the forestry people signposting each entrance / exit with danger signs, and riders keeping an eye out when riding round corners.

Joe

Posted 2 years ago #
stilltortoise - Member

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

I see your point, but a mountain biker on the deck will do all they can to get off the trail or fellow riders will warn others bikers of the hazard. A walker will not

Posted 2 years ago #
Mr Agreeable - Member

Occasionally meet small family groups out for a walk in 50 Acre Wood, Bristol, which is FC managed. The wood is well out of the way though, and it's typically just 1-2 groups that use it, so I haven't bothered reporting them or anything. There is more of a potential problem over the road, on the other half of the trail, but that area of land is managed by the Council.

I do think a lot of the public have yet to get their heads round the idea of a purpose-built mountain bike trail. I have had comments along the lines of "I was walking here years before there were mountain bikes" which is all well and good, but it's not going to help you when you meet Stoner coming round the corner.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kramer - Member

It's your responsibility to be able to stop safely within the distance that you can see on any form of transport, if you can't and for some reason you don't then you could be found negligent, no matter who or what it is that you crashed into.

Walkers on tracks at trail centres aren't a common problem IMHO, but it pays to take care. It could be you knocked out after a crash the next time lying on the trail and unable to move.

Posted 2 years ago #
Kramer - Member

I see your point, but a mountain biker on the deck will do all they can to get off the trail or fellow riders will warn others bikers of the hazard. A walker will not

What if they're knocked out, have broken their ankle, or have a spinal injury, and you're the first person that finds them?

Posted 2 years ago #
BoardinBob - Member

If you're riding anywhere at all, dedicated bike trail included, so fast that you may run into and injure someone on the trail then you just ain't riding with due care. As has been said, what if there is a mountain biker on the deck?

If you were into motor racing you could come round a corner and discover a crash that you cannot avoid. That's part and parcel of that sport. In the same way, there's always a risk of another cyclist on the trail but that's an expected risk.

To many folk on here pander to the red sock brigade and don't stand up enough for our rights. There are plenty of places where cyclists aren't allowed to go.

Is it too much to ask for a trail where only we're allowed access, so we can ride without expectining to find a family picnic in the middle of every trail???

Posted 2 years ago #
Zone - Member

I hit a dog in the peaks about 12 years ago.... I treat them like you would a pigeon when your in your car... It's more dangerous to stop from high speed than speed up and make sure you clear it. Unless of course its as big as a small horse....

This was a little rat like thing off it's lead...I didn't kill it...cos I could see it backup the hill running around in the distance. But I didn't stop... self preservation, that's where it ends for me.

As for walkers on our trails... I've a bell...and use it on blind bends or if they have their back to me or head down coming the other
way..... a bit sad I know ... but it works!

You will always be in the lap of the gods to some degree B-(

Zone

Posted 2 years ago #
iolo - Member

I have come across walkers many times at cyb, marin and penmachno.
I very nearly rode into 2 pensioners sat on a deckchair on the last descent of the marin last year. When I stopped to tell them they were on a mountain bike route they told me to f@ck off.Then they generally became abusive and threatening. I lost the head, saw rage threatened to rip his head of etc.
Then realised hitting 70 year olds was not the best thing to do.
I called the excuse of a mountain bike ranger they had at the time (now replaced thank god)to report it and nothing more came of it.

Posted 2 years ago #
glenp - Member

BoardinBob - don't know if you've noticed, but motorsport takes place on a marshalled, closed track. What you're describing is similar to doing motor racing on a public road - in other words driving like a pr!ck.

The "red sock brigade" are people. People out enjoying the countryside. Just like you. It is perfectly feasible to ride quickly and enjoyably and still look far enough ahead to spot other folk. In very many years of mountain biking I have long since realised that when you encounter walkers you either need to stop and let them pass, or at the very minimum slow down to the same speed as them.

Posted 2 years ago #
pjt201 - Member

@mr agreeable - i came across someone jogging round the timberland trail during the bikefest this year, i had to carry on behind him for about 20m before he let me pass. i pointed out that there would be a lot more mtber's passing than normal (very politely) and he just told me to p*ss off.

Posted 2 years ago #
bristolbiker - Member

Mr A - got into a rather heated discussion a few years ago in Ashton Court. Was riding the section from the gate house round by the wall... came round a corner at low speed to find a toddler, er, toddling along the path ahead of the rest of the happy family merrily out for a walk. Stopped without drama, no skidding needed, well in front of the kid..... who proceeded to burst into tears (probably scared, as to her I'd just appeared from nowehere). Father came lumbering up with a lump of wood threatening various levels of GBH and WOULD NOT accept he was walking on a way marked trail (...even though we were stood next to one of the markers), and could not see that just as I had half an eye on the possibility of people being on the trail and was ready to stop he/them should be aware of the potential for bikes to be there as well and the problems that might cause.

Don't know what this adds to the debate, but it made me **** angry at the time

Posted 2 years ago #
Zone - Member

I always seem to have at least one police officer with the group... and it has come in handy.

Zone

Posted 2 years ago #
Mr Agreeable - Member

pjt201 and Bristolbiker, that's a bit unfortunate but most people you meet are pretty polite, there's just the odd bolshy ****t.

I do think the Timberland could do with better signage, but from talking to the estate management they are a bit loath to plaster the place with big red notices as it would be out of keeping with the feel of a country park. I can sort of see their point, there is a danger of turning the place into the equivalent of Father Ted's picnic area.

It is actually a dual-use running and cycling trail too, although anyone taking a toddler down it should be referred to social services.

Posted 2 years ago #
stilltortoise - Member

What if they're knocked out, have broken their ankle, or have a spinal injury, and you're the first person that finds them?

We - as riders - do have a responsibility on the trail. If a rider is out on their own and they have a crash that incapicitates them then yes there is a chance another rider will hit them. I'm not going to preach about riding in groups and I do feel this is off the OP, but there is acceptable risk and there is unacceptable risk. Walkers on a dedicated MTB trail is unacceptable.

Posted 2 years ago #
Mr Agreeable - Member

GlenP, how does that work when you catch a group of walkers up then?

Posted 2 years ago #

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