Again, it's work that will barely cover the mortgage. If it was, the specialist photographers would be VAT registered; you’re barely making a living selling various sized jpegs for well under £20 at mtn biking events.

As regards copyright, no advertiser / client will touch any copy without the relevant model releases, unless they think they can get away with it, and here I’m thinking about the Press Complaints procedure or a civil prosecution, which is slightly off-topic.

Here's one I bought. Worth it I thought.

Joolze does some great work and manages to get a decent mix of "every rider in the race" and arty/action-y/different shots.
I've bought a few shots of hers from over the years, my favourite is this one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joolzed/2449706664/in/set-72157604780098289/
(can't copy/paste direct and yes, I did purchase it from her!).

There's a mix though of people who just do it for fun (a bit like me) and occasionally manage to get something vaguely decent to people doing it professionally but badly to folk who get it right every time.

TBH, the only real way to make something approaching a few bob at an event is to be officially accredited, otherwise you have to rely upon posts on a few web forums which is not good enough.

I think to make a good living doing event photography the setup with the camera in one place and machine gun the shutter is probably the way forward. I've seen it at plenty of triathlons and other events too. No art, no risks taken, just a shot of a racer racing.

That way you get a picture of everybody, and the more photographs you have of more people, then the more likely you are to sell sufficient to pay your wages.

Iirc a road photographer said on Monday he had 15K photos online from one of this weekend's gone events. Which suggest there is one of everybody.

Most riders are not photographers, and are quite happy with any picture of themselves at the race.

'One in particular had more kit than anyone I've ever seen at a race, all mounted on a tripod, and seemingly taking pics automatically as riders passed. He sat there looking bored stiff. If you were there, you'd have seen him. You couldn't really miss him!'

Well, I can only appolagise for that.
The reason the trap is out there is to make sure that everyone got a snap and to be honest I don't think those were really that bad. Guess it depends how commited you were at that point.

The guy that was with the gear was there for several reasons.
1- To look after the gear
2- To pause the trap when the solos came back through, then later, the pairs so they don't get continuously flashed at.
3- To gee on the riders, he obviously failed on this point.

There were 2 other photographers out there + myself, and I agree most of the pics look very much the same but the problem we have is to get 3 or 4 sharp images of every rider. On top of this, with a team of say 4, you will get just 1 chance of a photo in minimum 2 hours

This means taking 25 shots and getting 1 or 2 good ones is pretty much out of the question.

Last week at the SPAM Set2Rise I spent alot of time on slow panning shots, you get about 75% keeper rate on these and compared to 90% from the usuall head on type. Granted the panning shots look much better, however… I must have sold about 5% panning shots to 50% trap shots – go figure.

[

It'd be interesting to learn what the visitor to number of actual sales people are making (see my figures earlier in the post) as some events I've shot, people have bought 18×12 prints at £70 which convinced me not to sell jpegs from the outset and work on a smaller number of sales providing quality prints – just as I do in my social photography business.

This means a certain amount of admin and might from time to time lead to other sales. It also means I do occationally miss out on sales if riders want the full sized images, which is akin to buying the negatives, this runs against the grain as I see it.

This printing of my images is very satisfying from a professional perspective & I always try to have 2x remote flash units out on the trail on any given image and try never use direct flash. I need to select my locations with care based on these criteria – not always easy.

I appreciate others work selling different sized jpegs, and that there's no Right or Wrong in this, just different business plans and ideas.

Nothing technically special about these photos from Bristol, but I reckon they show an imaginative angle that the professionals don't get and they make a good souvenir of the event.

Jumping on the bike at the start.

And almost 12 hours later.

Nothing technically special about these photos from Bristol

you're not wrong

Yes, but if the choice is between technically good or imaginative photos, I'll go for those two as a reminder of my day.

just dont understand why people would pay for photos of their arse as they ride along, or a plain old riding along fireroad. MUST have something about it. i like these ones… all captured during DH races (maybe more exciting?)

angle that the professionals don't get

A most strange definition of "imaginative angle ".

Now I wonder why that would be?
Maybe you're new around bike events:

The professionals are either:
1) 25m ahead of the pack in a vehicle / better placed that this first shot 💡
2) out on the trail awaiting the first riders through 💡

A tip: photograph riders from the front as you're not ID'ing anyone from these angles (no race numbers) – ergo you won't sell any images.

You won't see the magazines picking up the tab for your day rate ever again with images like this. You need to shoot what either sells to the riders or sells the magazine. A little blunt – but best to let you down now before you dig yourself even further into the mire.

Yay this thread contains lots of my favourite things – photography, mountain biking, PP being pompous (again), and Ti29er being even more pompous (again). 🙂

Ti29er you must be a good salesman to be selling basic looking snaps with a blown out sky like this to a magazine

Here's my favourite pic of me from the Mega which I bought.

You won't see the magazines picking up the tab for your day rate ever again with images like this. You need to shoot what either sells to the riders or sells the magazine. A little blunt – but best to let you down now before you dig yourself even further into the mire.

Was he claiming to be a professional? I thought he was just saying he liked those photos and they were different to the norm?

I've said it before Tim, but I really don't think you're God's gift to photography, as you seem to think! Not saying I could do any better, but I find your preaching a little odd and rather tiresome.

Oy Vey! This will run and run! Re selling 'files' as opposed to prints, well I do both (for weddings and events) and do fairly well out of both types of sale.

I just think well why miss out on a £2.50 sale of a web-sized pic at 72dpi?

Well done to the Photo-It guy for giving a good explanation and not biting 🙂

Its also him in the shots, 'this is me at the beginning' and 'this is me at the end'. Narrative shots, he's not tryign to sell them to nayone, they're just narrative shots, which are still more interesting than boring 'head on shots'.

Lovely Mather BTW Graham.

As for 'depends how committed you were at that point', heh! I was far more committed on the little descent just before that spot, than I am on a flat lame bit of track, and where I was pushign it, at that point I was usually bottlenecked behind bimblers at that point … the better place for 'committment' would be lactate alley on the drag to the hairpin 200 yrds later on …

Narrative shots, he's not tryign to sell them to nayone, they're just narrative shots, which are still more interesting than boring 'head on shots'.

but he only imagined they were imaginative 🙂

Well done to the Photo-It guy for giving a good explanation and not biting

Seconded. 🙂

And chuckling at "lactate alley"…

As Grum pointed out, selling is everything in a business, something njee still fails to understand.

It's not how good someone is, it's how they sell both themsleves and their work. That's why njee will (always?) work for someone else or until he better comprehends the power of sales and marketing and applies them to his own skills set, which I'd like to add, I would never lambast on a public forum (poor form, yet again, njee).

[url=http://www.px3.fr/winners/cat_details.php?cat_name=Advertising&compName=PX3%202009&pro=pro]PX3 Awards. [/url]

I think it’s also worth noting that one man meat is another’s poison and photography in particular is very much a personal perspective.

Even a cursory look at the famous PX3 International Awards would reveal that I won outright the Automobile (professional) category, scored a 3rd in another and was awarded 5 commendations, perhaps revealing more about njee’s visual illiteracy & unnecessary snide comments than mere words on a web forum.

A sound illustration of what Grum was saying, concentrate upon sales & marketing & the rest will fall into place.

May seem like "Toys out of the Pram" but when some snideness pops up and slags your life's work off, a little defence is called for.

I think Ti29er wins the international "toys out of the pram" award (this thread category) by some margin. 🙂

I think Ti29er wins the international "toys out of the pram" award

how very dare you! He's got an award!!

It's pretty funny – I was basically slagging off Ti29er too – but he's somehow managed to see it as a complement. 🙂

Honestly – if you are going to go around acting the 'big I am' don't get upset when people pull you up on it. Giving out harsh unasked for criticism on other people's pictures is a bit rich when some of yours are frankly pretty poor (and some are very good and yes I know you won an award blah blah blah).

Yay this thread contains lots of my favourite things – photography, mountain biking, PP being pompous (again), and Ti29er being even more pompous (again).

You need to get out and ride more my friend, or put your brain into gear before opening your big gob. Anyone can sit in their ivory tower and hurl insults you know! 😛

I think it just annoys you that people do actually agree with me! 😉

That said, the photographers that have replied here seem to have good points and logical explanations of why they do what they do, so thanks for that you guys. 🙂

(i still think you're churning out too much mediocre stuff though)

You need to get out and ride more my friend, or put your brain into gear before opening your big gob

Oooh, PP in a snit ? Isn't grum broken and almost unable to ride ? In which case that's below the belt 🙁

I would like to buy photos of my self from events, most of the photos i have seen (of me) that have been done by the pro's are great (dispite the subject matter)

The only problem i have is the price of the pic's, nearly £9 per pic is a bit steep i think. Hence why i have stoped buying them 🙁

Anyone can sit in their ivory tower and hurl insults you know!

Now seriously, I'm no great shakes as a photographer

Two statements of fact from PP.

SFB – So what if he is? I'm meant to know the ins and outs of every STWers injuries now am I?
It doesn't seem to affect his ability to (poorly) insult people. And if you can't take it, don't start dishing it out! 😉

Those in glass houses etc…… 🙂

EDIT
I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

Grow up.

Goodnight everyone, have a lovely evening. 😀

It's pretty funny – I was basically slagging off Ti29er too – but he's somehow managed to see it as a complement.

Aah, you see Grum, me and Tim have 'history', you need to spend longer slagging him off!

You do undoubtedly take some good photos Tim, throw enough sh1t at a wall and what not. I don't think your photos of cyclists are very good though. No, I'm not going to do better, I have no real interest in standing around for hours at a time, I'd rather be riding my bike. I just find it amusing that you feel able to critique absolutely every one elses photos, despite not exactly being well known in cycling circles as a photographer.

Slightly intrigued that this came back to my working practices though, not totally sure of the relevance there…

I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

was I having a go ? Seems to me you're being oversensitive today! And grum's been rabbiting on about ME or something for about a year now…
Peter I think you're a great guy but that doesn't magically inoculate you against being teased when you sound off :o)

I fear 'growing up' is beyond me and the best I can hope for is a gradual decline into dementia…

I see everyone else is starting to jump on the 'have a go at PP whilst we can' now.

Grow up.

You're the one who started it. You're critising a photographer earning his living doing what he know best. Who are you to judge?

You don't want to buy a photo, then don't. If you want a photographer to show you looking like a riding god in a variety of poses, then commission one to do so.

If you want a photographer to show you looking like a riding god in a variety of poses, then commission one to do so.

And if that is what you want I can recommend Steve Behr, his attention to detail is impressive, guess he's been one of MBUK's top photographers for decades for a reason!

However… he doesn't shoot events, maybe he realises there's no money in that, or he's just not as good at it. Take note Tim, you can be good at some types of photography, and not others!

FWIW… which is next to nowt.. I personally think that the pan shots are naff..

Now if we can just find a photographer that can accurately capture pomposity……….

You're critising a photographer earning his living doing what he know best. Who are you to judge?

Hilarious 🙂 I think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline! Unless they start handing out awards to speed cameras 🙂 One shouldn't confuse money making with art…

think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline!

Depends whether he wants to be regarded as a great artistic photographer, or get paid by selling lots of photos, doesn't it…

And if you can't take it, don't start dishing it out!

Hilarious I think we can see easily enough that robotic photography is hardly the apogee of the discipline! Unless they start handing out awards to speed cameras One shouldn't confuse money making with art…

Remote photography is used more and more in sporting events. Getty and other big press photographers use it at all the major athletic champs.

In the 100 metres at a big international event there will be a bank of cameras all controlled remotely to capture the race.

It's not supposed to be art in that instance. It's a record of a person competing in an event.

, or get paid by selling lots of photos, doesn't it…

you're right of course, the absolute measure of merit is money

simonfbarnes – Member

, or get paid by selling lots of photos, doesn't it…

you're right of course, the absolute measure of merit is money [/quote]

If you're self employed be you an artist or an engineer, the merit of your work is indicated in some way by the money you earn?