I don't think education to 'A' level is necessary. Read the thread contents again.

Nottinghamshire is my local force

I'm in Notts, city centre based.

Mail me in from my profile if you want to talk.

I worked on a City Centre unit for 2 years, so far the best time of my 7 year career! Brilliant, freedom to target what/who I wanted, had some wicked jobs with brilliant results. Get onto that City Centre unit!!!

to target what/who I wanted, had some wicked jobs with brilliant results.

Oh yes

Talkemada – Member
deluded; Through work (local services) and just living where I live, in London. Sorry, but in my experience (and that of many people I know), some police officers are just poorly educated and ignorant. I could give you a list of examples, but I really can't be bothered, as you seem convinced that education is unnecessary.

Education is never unnecessary, and reading through the posts; I can't seem to find anyone saying that.

What I can see is however, is that people have identified a higher education doesn't mean a higher level of service or increased armoury of skills from an Officer and there are other skills which are as EQUALLY important when providing the public with a well rounded person.

I believe that it is wrong to judge a persons value or level of skill level by their educational background.

I'm sure there are lots or people in professional or skilled jobs throughout the world without an amazingly high education.

Agree with Amplebrew well made point.

What I can see is however, is that people have identified a higher education doesn't mean a higher level of service or increased armoury of skills from an Officer and there are other skills which are as EQUALLY important when providing the public with a well rounded person.

I'm not saying it does. But would you not agree, that a generally higher standard of education, coupled with good interpersonal skills, an ability to rationalise situations and make appropriate decisions, and all the other attributes of a good copper, would be good?

I believe that it is wrong to judge a persons value or level of skill level by their educational background.

Same here. But in such a 'public' role, I feel many individuals could benefit from a higher level of educational experience.

I'm not saying it does. But would you not agree, that a generally higher standard of education, coupled with good interpersonal skills, an ability to rationalise situations and make appropriate decisions, and all the other attributes of a good copper, would be good?

What would you class as a higher standard of education?

Do you know the educational background of the Officers you've dealt with?

Could the poor service be possibly down to poor Officers rather than so called uneducated ones?

Academic ability has next to nothing to do with how good or bad a person will be as a bobby in my long experience-the first and foremost necessary skill/personal trait is common sense!
I have seen an incredible number of probationers as they were called but now referred to as student officers who were educated degree students who left he job and were some of the least effective officers because they lacked common sense and many were naive.
Never the same day twice, always a challenge, some bad days, some great-if you think that society would benefit from your skills, give it a go. Nothing ventured nothing gained…and this is a 26 year service 'old sweat'!!!

What would you class as a higher level of education?

A better foundation in Law would be a start..

It's not particularly the level or subject that is important, more the experience that can be gained within an educational environment. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but amongst the people I know, it's the ones that have pursued education after leaving school, that are more knowledgeable, open minded and dynamic than those who didn't. They also, generally, have better careers and are often more secure and well-rounded people.

Formal education isn't for everyone, and there are some that have succeeded without any qualifications at all. But it can't hurt, surely?

In my experience, it's the officers who display a more developed intellect, that are the more effective ones. I think you'll agree, that the officers who have been more progressive in their careers, that are often the more educated ones. I'd hazard a guess that the more senior ranking officers are reasonably well educated.

The mind is like a muscle; exercise is good for it.

Wow, you are so far from the mark in my experience….
People that are thick will not pass the assesment to join.
Progression to senior ranks is only driven by the need of the individual to attain a higher rank.
There are some very 'uneducated' ranking officers who have the skills required to be both great gaffers but also still policemen. then there are others who are 'educated' with neither of the above skills and the odd one that has.
Being able pass exams does not make a policeman/policewomen, it makes you an exam student.

You usually find that Police Officers with a poor grasp of Criminal Law come unstuck very quickly in Court under cross examination, that's if the CPS put the case before the court.

This is good as it provides a check within the process. I agree that the Police in general should be mindful that they are there to uphold the law, and are not 'the Law' or above the law (at the end of the day the buck stops with the man in the funny wig), but I would add that in a lot of situations that Police officers find themselves in, Legal training would be useless.

To the OP, go for it…ask not why? ask why not?! 😉

Sorry to hijack but i am currently waiting for assessment/shortlisting and have found this very helpful although i dont think a debate about education was part of the question!

Onza – I have a couple of good friends in different counties(inc met)
and they have said exactly the same as on here – just go for it – it will be fun!

My gaffer's got a degree in Zoology and fifteen years of experince in some of the 'juicier' areas of the city- I know what is the most useful to him.

I've got a degree in social history, OU diploma in criminology, OU diploma in urban planning, various qualifications based around terror12m and the built enviroment along with a recently acquired accreditation as a fraud examiner and forensic accountant.
Its the ten years I spent working in nightclubs and in retail that has taught me the most though.
The rest just means I can knock out the odd essay or strategy document when needed.

On the other hand it does astound me how some meat-heads make it through- you're always going to need people to batter down the doors though. 😉

Talkemada – Member

It's not particularly the level or subject that is important, more the experience that can be gained within an educational environment. I can only speak from my own personal experience, but amongst the people I know, it's the ones that have pursued education after leaving school, that are more knowledgeable, open minded and dynamic than those who didn't. They also, generally, have better careers and are often more secure and well-rounded people.

Have you got any friends or collegues that haven't progessed their education beyond school?

Have you told them that they aren't as "knowledgeable, open minded and dynamic, secure and well-rounded?"

In my experience, it's the officers who display a more developed intellect, that are the more effective ones. I think you'll agree, that the officers who have been more progressive in their careers, that are often the more educated ones. I'd hazard a guess that the more senior ranking officers are reasonably well educated

The Officers who progress their careers either do so because they want to, not because they have a greater level of education.

Being able pass exams does not make a policeman/policewomen, it makes you an exam student.

Erm, it makes you able to tackle intellectually demanding tasks… 🙄

I think you're assuming I'm being somehow 'elitist' about this. I'm not. I'm merely suggesting that imposing higher standards might actually make for a better police force. Of course, there's no substitute for real experience 'on the job', but some of you seem very defensive about the issue of raising standards.

Generally, in our society, those who have a higher level of education do better. Wether that education comes from an academic setting, or through experience, knowledge is a good thing.

The Officers who progress their careers either do so because they want to, not because they have a greater level of education.

So, the top officers have no experience of Further or Higher Education? Really?

(Mr MC posting).

I'm a DC with a PhD, and in Oxford where I was formerly based there were at least 4 PhDs I know of. Most of us are pretty good coppers. The best and most respected street copper in Oxford (and star of the shield sledging video) failed the sgts exam, though he knows criminal law inside out but he's not a natural student.

Dont judge a nation of coppers by experiences with either droids or metpol, neither group is representative. I'm one of those who has quickly left the street for a pointless office job (you know, locking up rapists and drug dealers, that sort of thing).

I happen to think the bar for new recruits is set too low on all counts; the fitness test is an insult, many are too young/inexperienced/immature, don't see the job as a vocation or calling and the new training system has lost the last vestiges of discipline. Intellect is only one area that is not tested stringently enough at the recruitment stage.

I left science/industry and took a 30% paycut to join the police. On a good day its the best job in the world. The only job I can think of that could equal it for reward is in medicine when you save a life, and I've done that too. You will see the best and worst of human nature, and experience events and emotions they make movies about.

You could spend 30yrs as a constable theres so much variety- from dog handler, mounted section, firearms to child abuse specialist, cold case review team (having some fantastic results in Thames Valley) to organsied crime or surveillance.

Ask about ride-alongs which are exactly as it sounds. Try and do a few on different shifts to get a feel for the job-it will expose you to the real job and the people doing it and give you a feel for it, and look good on your application form.

(Mr) MC +1

Have you got any friends or collegues that haven't progessed their education beyond school?

Have you told them that they aren't as "knowledgeable, open minded and dynamic, secure and well-rounded?"

Yes. They tend to be less successful, knowledgeable, open-minded and dynamic as their better educated peers. One friend I was talking to recently, was regretting the fact he'd not pursued opportunities in Higher Education that some of his peers have. He has not progressed within his career as he would have iked, and seen better educated people come in and rise up the ladder before him. His career has stagnated, and he sees few opportunities for progression. He's not a copper, but I'd reckon a similar thing applies to most jobs and careers, really.

I'm not saying college or university is the be all and end all of everything. I'm merely suggesting a varied combination of skills and abilities is perhaps better, for most individuals at least, than a more limited and narrow set. What's wrong with that?

The Officers who progress their careers either do so because they want to, not because they have a greater level of education.

So, the top officers have no experience of Further or Higher Education? Really?

It's certainly not a necessity.

It doesn't matter to me what level of education my Senior Officers have,

It does matter to me that they allow me to police and help the community effectively.

It does matter to me that they listen to their Officers and understand the issues and problems in their geographical area.

I'm fortunate on both counts.

Think this thread is straying off the point slightly. But anyhow …

Talkemada – I don't think you are quite getting it. There is no need for police officers to have any significant educational qualifications. I would suggest that your understanding of criminal Law, including the various ins and outs of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act might not be up to the standards you suggest. I can name plenty of occassions where I have dealt with solicitors/lawyers who have suggested my knowledge of the law is wrong. On each occassion they demonstrated a quite staggeringly poor understanding of the area of Law in question. I would suggest that this is a phenomena whereby most people who have done something silly believe that they are always right, or change their interpretation of events to suit their own needs. Some might call it cognitive dissonance. The most fundamental skills you need as an officer are common sense, an ability to make sound decisions under sometimes extreme pressure, and a thick skin. If anything needs to be improved it is the quality of initial training, although this is still a period of 32 weeks with a 2 year probation. However money and willing volunteers to train new staff are not terribly forthcoming. This is coming from someone with a good degree from a good university.

Getting back to the original point. Onzadog – I've worked for the police for a number of years and have done quite a few different things. I've worked in specialist units in uniform and as a detective dealing with everything from murder, terrorism and gunrunners through to shoplifters and pickpockets. I've enjoyed almost every second of it. The variety of jobs you can turn your hand to are mind boggling. Don't listen to the whinging. Lot's of officers moan about the job and how managers and the public are horrible, yet they still manage to do 30 years!!!

Yes. They tend to be less successful, knowledgeable, open-minded and dynamic as their better educated peers. One friend I was talking to recently, was regretting the fact he'd not pursued opportunities in Higher Education that some of his peers have. He has not progressed within his career as he would have iked, and seen better educated people come in and rise up the ladder before him. His career has stagnated, and he sees few opportunities for progression. He's not a copper, but I'd reckon a similar thing applies to most jobs and careers, really.

Believe me, you don't need any further education to be a good effective Officer and it will never hold you back from progressing your career.

Promotion is based on your work and skills demonstrated, not your education.

I've worked for the police for a number of years and have done quite a few different things. I've worked in specialist units in uniform and as a detective dealing with everything from murder, terrorism and gunrunners through to shoplifters and pickpockets. I've enjoyed almost every second of it. The variety of jobs you can turn your hand to are mind boggling. Don't listen to the whinging. Lot's of officers moan about the job and how managers and the public are horrible, yet they still manage to do 30 years!!!

I think it's the best job in the world and would not do anything else. You'll get out of it what you put in and if you keen and willing to get involved the possibilties are endless.

Talkemada – I don't think you are quite getting it

Getting what, exactly?

Actually, you demonstrate my point perfectly; you have provided an intelligent, reasoned, well-thought out and well constructed argument. Do you not think that your ability to do so is a result of your education? Indeed, would you not consider on the job training, in certain specialist areas, 'education'?

I think too many of you are equating 'education' with 'pieces of paper', and feel that such things aren't relevant to the job. I'm not. I'm talking about the mind of the individual being pushed further, for their intellectual potential to be realised.Mt MunqueChick seems to back me up on this.

A friend of a friend studied Forensic Science at uni. She then went on to join the Garda. After a couple of years of basic training/probation, she is now a fully qualified CSI or whatever it's called in her job. Without formal education, she would not be able to pursue her career in the way she wants, as she would not be equipped sufficiently. Yes, you need some lumps to kick doorrs in, but you also need people with intelligence and finely honed skills. Some of those skills can be learned in an academic setting, others from pounding the beat. All are valuable. Raising all standards for entry would, surely, make for a more efficient and effective police force.

Interesting discussion, this. No-one's called anyone a rude word yet… 😀

Ahem … you were the one that specifically mentioned that police recruits should have an A level in Law!!! You clearly suggested that all police recruits should have acheived some kind of academic qulaification. Training is education, of course it is. But it happens after selection, not before. It's not as simple as linking recruitment to educational acheivement. That's all I'm saying.

A friend of a friend studied Forensic Science at uni. She then went on to join the Garda. After a couple of years of basic training/probation, she is now a fully qualified CSI or whatever it's called in her job. Without formal education, she would not be able to pursue her career in the way she wants, as she would not be equipped sufficiently. Yes, you need some lumps to kick doorrs in, but you also need people with intelligence and finely honed skills. Some of those skills can be learned in an academic setting, others from pounding the beat. All are valuable. Raising all standards for entry would, surely, make for a more efficient and effective police force.

Fair point
A lot of jobs requiring a higher level of education are being civilianised these days though. Not sure if that's good or bad- do you really need powers of arrest to analise evidence in an office or lab?

Likewise will an excessivly qualified mind be at home with the strict chain of command in some forces?

Discus,
5000 words, on my desk by Monday, have a good weekend students.

I would highly recommend you read this – brilliant! 😆

Tankslapper it is a good read and very similar to what actually happens/goes on however back to the original thread!

Apply and go for it!! Nothing ventured nothing gained.

Surely the single most important skill to have as a police officer is the ability to communicate and to do it well?

Nursing is moving ever more rapidly towards being a degree only profession, but being able to complete a degree is no guarantee that you are able to communicate at the standard needed. I strongly suspect that police officering is exactly the same.

Degree entry should mean a certain innate or taught level of intelligence, but it really only means that you can do a degree, not that you can function any better than someone without one.

There's a lot to be said for crusty old feckers who've seen it and done it and got the T-shirt. (I'm one of them… 😆 )

[ being able to pass exams] makes you able to tackle intellectually demanding tasks…

Well, that's a bit of a tenuous relationship between exam taking and intellectual ability in the first place, but even if the above were true… how much of a police officer's job involves intellectually demanding tasks? By "intellectually demanding", I mean lots of abstract reasoning and consideration of fine principles. I'm not saying that cops are thick, I am just suggesting (and ready to be correct by those who know better) that in the vast majority of cases, the practical application of usually relatively-well established legal principles using common sense and humanity is going to be much more important than intellectual demands for the average cop. I mean this in the same way that paralegals and most high street lawyers are mostly dealing with very routine legal transactions, most nurses and GPs are dealing with mostly the same diseases with mostly the same outcomes etc etc.

I'm not disagreeing with you that generally education is A Good Thing and that usually more education = smarter person but just suggesting that for the rank and file, having a degree or A Level law might not be much of a guide. Cops in New South Wales, IIRC, all do a part-time Police Studies degree at Macquarie Uni but let's just say there's no radical noticeable improvement over English ones. (And, also, I am sure that we have all met incredibly thick, naive and unperceptive people in mainstream life who have somehow managed to get degrees).