That would suggest that cats have an insignificant effect on constant wild bird population levels

Unless you're the Stephen's Island Wren and have been made extinct through predation by cats.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephens_Island_Wren

Having had a cat clear out a nest of robin chicks we were eagerly watching in the garage, I'm slightly surprised that the domestic cat can be defended at all. The cost of these psychopathic little killing machines is the unnecessary deaths of millions of native birds, frogs, toads, slow worms, voles, shrews etc. I've yet to come up with a benefit, other than as python food. As has been noted, ownership of these pointless pets can be filed under

human activity

.

just pointing out your bizarre lack of empathy

As am I yours…

Why should it be ok for a molycoddled, spoilt pet pest to kill and maim wild animals?

wild bird populations are not constant.

But not because of predatory activity from cats it would appear. Song birds produce rather large broods every year. Robins for example, will typically lay 4-6 eggs, and 3 successful broods per year is not usual. Life expectancy for a Robin is only about a year, but obviously a pair of robins only need two of their off-springs to survive for their population level to remain constant. The other 15 or so off-spring are produced to allow for losses including, losses due to predators such as hawks and carnivorous mammals (you might be surprised to learn that foxes can leap high enough to catch birds in mid-air) Of course due to human activity, song birds lack many of the natural predators (hawks, weasels etc) which they have evolved to compensate for. As I have said, I doubt what is taken by domestic cats (one bird every two years per cat) is significant. If it is, then that is probably because of the huge amount of other losses birds suffer as a result of human activity – loss of habitat, pesticides etc.

"220 million other animals as mind blowing"

Not really imo. Because of the areas where they are mostly kept, I suspect the the overwhelming majority of 'other animals' killed by cats are mice.

Corroded, all the Stephens Island Wren shows is that the presence of cats would indeed be of grave concern if the UK was 1 mile across, and the birds on it were flightless.

Why should it be ok for a molycoddled, spoilt pet pest to kill and maim wild animals?

why should it be ok for a molycoddled, spoilt pet to be maimed and killed by a human?

I have said, I doubt what is taken by domestic cats (one bird every two years per cat) is significant.

I doubt what is taken by domestic pythons (one cat) is significant either…

Unless you're the Stephen's Island Wren

Presumably Stephen's Island Wrens hadn't evolved to deal with any threat from predators at all.
Once Stephen's Island had been discovered by humans, they were buggered.

I doubt what is taken by domestic pythons (one cat) is significant either…

On the level of cat population, no it isn't.

What's your point ?

cats are banned as pets in some parts of new zealand I believe

Why should it be ok for a molycoddled, spoilt pet pest to kill and maim wild animals?

why should it be ok for a molycoddled, spoilt pet to be maimed and killed by a human?

Neither is ok, but if I kill a molycoddled cat, it might save many birds from their grizzly fate.

We clearly have different views, and clearly neither of them are 100% correct. However as cats *are* a direct product of human activity, you're basically saying killing defenceless birds for no reason is OK, and by having a cat, you are by proxy doing so. At least if I killed a cat, i'd be doing it for a purpose.

What IS the purpose of domestic cats, apart from a frivolous extravagance of human excess?

Do you have to have a purpose to exist, then? I think you're in trouble mate.

What IS the purpose of domestic cats

Originally vermin control. Also companionship………… and in my case, 'life-style gurus'.

BTW as well as cats, I keep birds – including wild rescued birds.

.

Now tell me …..what's "the purpose" of MTBing ?

Do you have to have a purpose to exist, then?

I guess that'll be a question for Richard Dawkins, or God, Allah, Buddah, or whoever, mate….

Now tell me …..what's "the purpose" of MTBing ?

A question that has perplexed walkers for the past 30 years or so…

"On the level of cat population, no it isn't.

What's your point ?"

You were suggesting that cats don't pose a threat to wild bird populations. I am suggesting that snakes don't pose a threat to the cat population, so why worry about it?

I am suggesting that snakes don't pose a threat to the cat population, so why worry about it?

I'm sorry …….. maybe I haven't been paying enough attention to this thread, but I wasn't aware anyone was worried about snakes having a detrimental effect on the UK cat population ?

But if this is the case then, yes – I can see your point.

As I have said, I doubt what is taken by domestic cats (one bird every two years per cat) is significant. If it is, then that is probably because of the huge amount of other losses birds suffer as a result of human activity – loss of habitat, pesticides etc.

Those human activities, whilst destructive, do serve a purpose when you look at the increasing pressures placed on the planet thanks to the ever-increasing human population. Again, how do cats help us provide space or shelter for our own kind? They are a destructive frivolous excess with no useful purpose.

Perhaps we are too, but how do you propose we solve that? Limit the numbers of children people have, sterilise chavs, euthanasia, stop treating the ill? Where do you stop? Compared to that, limiting cat numbers seems somewhat less controversial….

So basically, you'd like to kill off useless members of the population, but can't, so cats will do?

you're basically saying killing defenceless birds for no reason is OK

No I'm not, show me where I've said that, what I've been saying is that kicking cats its wrong and I said something along the lines that you sound like a pathatic waste of skin to me.

So basically, you'd like to kill off useless members of the population, but can't, so cats will do?

Ultimately, the single most destructive force on this planet is the human population. Either we limit ourselves before we hit the planet's limits, or we'll destroy most of the rest of the natural world in an attempt to stave off the inevitable. Quite simple facts when you consider water and food shortages predicted over the next 20-50 years.

Compared to that cats (and their effects on the wild birds near my garden) are hardly of consequence, but as we've all got so worked up about that, it would be a shame to lose our track on the topic… (Which after all happened when you diverted the argument onto the philosophy of human existence a couple of post back)

No I'm not, show me where I've said that, what I've been saying is that kicking cats its wrong and I said something along the lines that you sound like a pathatic waste of skin to me

I'm saying keeping cats is wrong, as they are a pathetic waste of fur and wildlife, and their owners are a pathetic waste of skin…

And by endorsing cats, you are tacitly agreeing that the mindless killing of wild birds is OK. After all, that's what cats do. I can't help but think that this thread would pan out differently if instead of piously defending cats, one or two owners posting on here took out the middleman (middlecat?) and shot the birds for fun. As domestic cats are kept for fun, and they kill birds, that's basically the same idea.

Compared to that, limiting cat numbers seems somewhat less controversial….

And compared to the total effect on the the environment by humans, resorting to 'limiting cat numbers' is clearly a pointless and futile exercise. As I have already suggested, British song birds have evolved to deal with losses sustained by predators. If the insignificant losses they are experiencing from cat kills is having a dramatic effect on song bird populations, then this can only be because so many other issues are effecting their population levels.

"Perhaps we are too, but how do you propose we solve that?"

Are you seriously suggesting we cannot manage our environment better ? Other than 'reducing the cat population' ?

😕

If we let our pet pythons get big enough, perhaps they can control the human population?

If the insignificant losses they are experiencing from cat kills is having a dramatic effect on song bird populations, then this can only be because so many other issue are effecting their population levels.

You seem to be deliberately avoiding the question. While some of the factors affecting songbird populations can be attributed to human interference, they do have a purpose: more efficient food production, more homes. You might not agree with those reasons, but at least there is some justification. But there seems to be no justification, no counterbalance, for the deaths inflicted by domestic cats other than the pleasure derived from owning a furry serial killer.

And by endorsing cats, you are tacitly agreeing that the mindless killing of wild birds is OK

No, wrong again. I havent endorssed cats, I dont have one if if one came in my garden my pet lurcher could very well have a similar effect to the python, except quicker. What I actally have said, if you coulf be bothered to read, is that kicking cats, or any other animal is wrong. Other animals do what come naturally but apparently what ever passes for your brain cannot control itself.

As an aside your original post, I think suggested that cats shitting in your garden should be kicked it didnt mention twittypie

You seem to be deliberately avoiding the question.

LOL ! 'deliberately avoiding the question' ? – why would I do that ? 😀

I wasn't aware there was a 'question' ……. what is the question – how to improve the environment for British song birds ?

Well I think that's probably a topic for another thread. Although I would suggest that pesticides are probably a good area to look at for a start. And I don't mean just the pesticides used in agriculture – also those used in domestic gardens. I suspect that the lack of insect life to raise broods probably has far more effect on song bird populations than the one bird each cat takes every other year on average.

btw, I'm surprised that the vilification of magpies hasn't started on this thread yet – oh how we like to blame other species

🙂 I was referring to zokes's valid enquiry about the purpose of domestic cats. You did mention pest control but I doubt many house cats are kept for pest control these days.

I'm not at all surprised magpies haven't been vilified yet. They are an important, indigenous and natural part of British ecosystems, clearing up carrion, for example. While both kill songbirds, the difference between a magpie and a cat (ok, one of the many differences) is that the magpie has a role in the wild. The cat, so far as I can see, is a human indulgence.

I thought it was hilarious…

JUSTICE FOR WILBUR

Funny As F***

This is the one I always reach for when discussing cats

http://www.abdn.ac.uk/~nhi775/cat_predation.htm

Bucket-water-job done

http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/editorial-080828-1.html
http://springerlink.com/content/30h281g68648h431/fulltext.pdf

I'm off to batter some pussy!

As an aside your original post, I think suggested that cats shitting in your garden should be kicked it didnt mention twittypie

I would kick the owner too, but as most cat-lovers on here seem to demonstrate, i'm currently aiming my boot at the more intelligent party. My original post actually simply highlighted the hilarity of a someone's pet cat being eaten by a pet snake in the snake owner's garden. The result of which led the pig thick cat owners to blame the snake, not look as to why the cat was in someone else's garden in the first place.

And ernie_lynch, have you let that PaddedRudeFred dimwit onto your account again?

(What is it with people with underscores in their names?) 😕

I would kick the owner too, but as most cat-lovers on here seem to demonstrate, i'm currently aiming my boot at the more intelligent party.

Yeah your posts have been very intelligent.

result of which led the pig thick cat owners to blame the snake

Blame the snake I didnt see any of that, a few people rightly thought it was irresponsible to leave a python unattended in a back garden.

You then rabitted on about kicking cats which had shit in your garden, something which you might be better off taking up with the owner but I expect your to scared of things which kick back.

Yeah your posts have been very intelligent.

You then rabitted on about kicking cats which had shit in your garden, something which you might be better off taking up with the owner but I expect your you're too scared of things which that kick back.

Clearly cleverer than you then…

I'm afraid that kicking a cat and letting it learn its presence is not wanted is a darn sight less cruel than letting your lurcher 'see to it', which is what you implied might happen if a cat were to enter your garden. Is the potentially violent dog some sort of compensation for something? Not sounding very big now, are we?

And as there are about eight cats that frequent my garden, I feel i'd be wasting a lot of time looking for the correct owner to kick on each occasion.

You are surprisingly childish zokes. But if you want to correct other people's posts just to prove how clever you are, then you missed the double 'o' in too.

Oh, I see that you have edited it now !!!

You're taking this very seriously – good for you !

I'm afraid that kicking a cat and letting it learn its presence is not wanted is a darn sight less cruel than letting your lurcher 'see to it'

You really are quite stunningly stupid arent you? Do you not understand that your thought processes and my dogs should be somewhat different.

Also if your going to use quotation marks to make a point at least quote what I said.

PS still waiting for that email so that I can give you the address for you to send me some cat shit via recorded delivery.

You really are quite stunningly stupid arent you? Do you not understand that your thought processes and my dogs should be somewhat different.

Oh I see. Right, I'll go and buy a violent dog, leave it in my garden, then all I need to worry about is clearing up dead cats and one animal's crap, which I'll tie up in a little plastic bang and hang on the nearest tree.

Problem solved, it might even stop that pesky kid with his balls you mentioned earlier, and all passed by the moral superiority that is a_a

(Of course, my thought process should be not to kick the cat, and yours should be not to leave your dog in the garden, lest kitty purr by. But that's just semantics)

Problem solved, it might even stop that pesky kid with his balls you mentioned earlier, and all passed by the moral superiority that is a_a

Show my where I mentiond a kid with a ball?