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PSA - Bomber Boys, BBC 1

71 posts & 34 voices | Started 3 months ago by stumpy01 | Latest reply from mikertroid

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Rusty Spanner - Member

Bit patronising Ernie.

Are you saying that TV audiences are incabable of watching a documentary without a celebrity presenter?

Kenneth Clark's Civilization, Connections, The Ascent of Man, War Walks, A History of Britain etc etc were all presented and/or written by historians.
No one felt the need to have John Inman present The Nazis, a Warning from History.

Edit - crossed posts.

And tell us how British TV audiences should only watch programmes which have been approved by you.

Sorry Ernie, where did he say that?

And just to confirm, yes I did watch it, and felt the choice of presenter added nothing.

Posted 3 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Bit patronising Ernie

Are you saying that TV audiences are incabable of watching a documentary without a celebrity presenter?

Me patronising ?

I'm saying people are perfectly capable of deciding for themselves what they want to watch and what they enjoy, without advice from the likes of you and trailmonkey.

I enjoyed watching the BBC's Bomber Boys, I don't need you to tell me that it was "dumbed down" and therefore unacceptable.

Sorry Ernie, where did he say that?

Read my post properly - I wasn't talking to you.

Posted 3 months ago #
Rusty Spanner - Member

Show me where I said it was dumbed down.
Then show me where I advised people what to watch.
And finally, show me where I told you it was unacceptable.

All I did was express an opinion that I don't like celebrities presenting documentaries.
Is that ok with you?
Would you like to discuss the topic, or just snipe at people?
Or is this another subject you object to people expressing an opinion on?

Read my post properly - I wasn't talking to you.

Read my post properly - the use of 'he' indicates that I'm aware you weren't addressing me.

So where did he say it?

Posted 3 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Where did he say it?

"so history needs to be dumbded down so tv audiences can take it ?"[

I took "dumbded down" as meaning dumbing down. Your powers of observation aren't huge are they Rusty Spanner ?

I consider trailmonkey to be a persistent whinger of "dumbing down". I also consider to make that accusation against the BBC particularly absurd - the BBC has a very impressive record of providing extremely high quality TV viewing throughout its history. And high quality TV viewing does not mean restricting everything down to its purely 'educational value'. There is a time and place for everything. However that isn't good enough for pretentious middle-class wallahs like trailmonkey. But that's kind of tough, because the BBC doesn't solely exist for him. It also has to provide a service to vulgar individuals such as me who didn't receive tertiary education and don't as a rule shop in Waitrose or enjoy the culinary delights of organic sundried tomatoes.

Posted 3 months ago #
Rusty Spanner - Member

Your powers of observation aren't huge are they Rusty Spanner ?

Well, they're obviously better than yours tonight Ernie :

I asked you to tell me where he told us ....'how British TV audiences should only watch programmes which have been approved by you'.

You still haven't answered that question.

Or addressed the points I raised in my previous post:

Show me where I said it was dumbed down.
Then show me where I advised people what to watch.
And finally, show me where I told you it was unacceptable.

Posted 3 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

Ernie, I asked you to tell me where he told us ....'how British TV audiences should only watch programmes which have been approved by you'.

One final attempt to show I wasn't talking to you :

"I suspect though trailmonkey, you weren't much bothered what you were watching, just as long as you could have a good ol' whinge and moan afterwards about 'dumbing down'. And tell us how British TV audiences should only watch programmes which have been approved by you."

He's quite capable of challenging me himself if he is unhappy with my conclusion.

I have already addressed your point Rusty Spanner, concerning :

I'd like a programme about history to be presented by a historian, instead of an actor.

The BBC did not bill it as a history programme. Check for yourself :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01byv2g

I can't see the word history in any of that. Nor in the RAF website :

http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/bomber-boys-01022012

You have decided that it should have been a history programme.

Posted 3 months ago #
Rusty Spanner - Member

He's quite capable of challenging me himself if he is unhappy with my conclusion.

I know you weren't talking to me.
But this is a public forum Ernie, not a private conversation.
I asked you to tell me where he told us ....'how British TV audiences should only watch programmes which have been approved by you'.
So, for the third time, how about answering the question, eh?

And again for the third time, regarding the points raised against myself:

Show me where I said it was dumbed down.
Then show me where I advised people what to watch.
And finally, show me where I told you it was unacceptable.

One last chance to answer the accusations you've made against Trailmonkey and myself.
Or you could withdraw them and apologise of course

Posted 3 months ago #
globalti - Member

It was an interesting documentary and will no doubt make lots of money for the BBC over the years.

Just a pity the actual flight in the Lanc came so late and they didn't linger a bit more on the sound and the sensations and experience.

McGregor is pretty good; I could see him moving on to become a serious presenter f he wanted his career to go that way. Unlike that oaf Charlie Boorman.

Posted 3 months ago #
trailmonkey - Member

However that isn't good enough for pretentious middle-class wallahs like trailmonkey.

ace, i learnt it all at prep school

Posted 3 months ago #
ironside7000 - Member

Humbling listening to the old lads.. Theres a bloke who lives in Belmont called Ron, we often chat to him after our Thursday night ride finishes in the pub.. he was parachuted into Arnham (sp). God has he got some stories!

@lowrey - you in Bristol? - my mums Uncle was called Ron and he was at Arnham (Paras) - if so I can vouch for his stories! Top bloke - was still jumping out of planes on the anniversary until a few years ago.....well into his late 70s. Top bloke

Posted 3 months ago #
derekrides - Member

cynic-al - Member
derekrides - Member
They can't help themselves bringing up Dresden can they ffs.
Only the bloody Brits can look back at what those guys did for us then cry shame.

Was this aimed at the pilots/aircrew or those that came up with the strategy?

Just saying, like.

It was aimed at the programme makers, who couldn't help themselves joining the recent revisionist PC trend of highlighting what they view as 'bad' bits of the war. I can assure you, no-one who lived through the Blitz, or any of those Bomber Crews, could give a rats arse as to the outcome of the Dresden Raids, it was just another of a long line of them, historically probably Hamburg was worse and as I said, at the time V2's were falling on London, a secret weapon with no defence options and had Hitler had his way it would have been nuclear.

Whilst I'm in full rant, I've always found it appalling that they were not recognised and contemptible what happened to Harris simply because Churchill wanted to back track.

I did enjoy the programme, I was touched by the old girl that riveted, in more ways than one, the obvious love and respect Euan has for his brother, I also enjoyed the Spitfire programme some while back. My old man was in the RAF photo reconnasaince, the other mentor in my life, my former chief photographer was a WOP AG, tail end charlie, he never talked about it, just said he was lucky to have lived through it, but would not have missed it for the world in hind site .

So my position has always been very respectful of the sacrifice made by the men and women that fought that war, and wonder how many of them would be turning in the graves at what the following generations did with the freedom they provided. The CC TV, the Curtailing of freedom of speech, the enforcement of secularism, the state interference.. etc etc.

There, shoulder chip duly exposed..

Posted 3 months ago #
spacemonkey - Member

Can't be bothered commenting on your arguments above ... so I'll just say I watched the first hour or so and found it pretty good. Naturally the old boys' clips were the best, but IMO Ewan (who I ****' detest) and his brother seemed to keep grounded (no pun intended) without coming across all slebsy.

Would've preferred a proper historian (even Dan Snow) though.

Posted 3 months ago #
sadmadalan - Member

I enjoyed the programme, if for nothing else than watch the Lancaster fly. While Ewan is not a historian, I thought he did ok. If by having him present it meant that more people watched the programme then it was worth it. I thought the bits with his brother were great, as an ex-RAF pilot who has seen combat and used to fly for 6167 Sqn he had a great viewpoint.

I thought it was also very interesting that the programme showed the development and rejection of area bombing. Dresden had to be brought up, if only to show how much the influence of it affects the RAFs combat operations today.

But the highlight was the old men (and women) and hearing them talk. The days of having them around are slowly closing and programmes like this are vital to capture their experiences. Programmes like this will attract people who would not normally watch a history programme, and allow part of our collective history to be passed on.

They were very brave men, who were very normal and very young. And many of them never came home.

Posted 3 months ago #
sharkbait - Member

Liked the program. Fantastic looking plane flown by incredibly brave people.

And I actually like Ewan McG. There, I said it.

Posted 3 months ago #
totalshell - Member

interseting programme, enjoyed it ( i ve drunk at the blue bell inn!) the old guys and the old germans though really brought it home.. 170 folk killed trying to get into an air raid shelter..stuff like that you never hear about and to think today we go the whole hog for each individual who loses thier life in a conflict ( which we should of course)
bad time to be about makes you appreciate how lucky we are to be able to be keyboard warriors..

Posted 3 months ago #
zippykona - Member

Having seen what the air crew had to go through I think I need L M F tattooed on my forehead.

Posted 3 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

I think you are all missing a point, the programme was Ewan's idea and no doubt sold to the BBC.
Besides, a 'historian' would've no doubt turned it into another plodfest, whilst the angle of Ewan's brother - and thier affection for eachother - added another nice level to the story.
Ewan's tears were obviously real when listening to the old boy's stories (especially the fire storm discussion).

If you're not a fan of Ewan then you would understandably not be keen to watch him for an hour and a half on such an emotive subject, but the truth is that he did a great job. On his documentary.

Put your hatred down and enjoy the ride - besides, Ewan is a true Brit and worthy of his 'celebrity'. Whatever that means.
Personally I struggle to see what there is to dislike about a man whom never has a bad word to say and always wears a smile - no doubt he would give most of you miserable buggers a fair crack.

Posted 3 months ago #
Rusty Spanner - Member

I don't dislike him!
I think he's a very good actor.

And where on earth do you get 'hatred' from?

All I've said is that I prefer documentaries that are written and presented by professionals in the relevant field, rather than celebs.

If anyone would like to discuss this, I'd be happy to do so, but please don't make out that I've said something I haven't.

Ta.

Posted 3 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

hatred was a word I plucked out of my mind box. dislike may have been more appropriate.

I liked that fact that, like me, he has a genuine interest in the history of that conflict - he's basically living the dream man..

Kudos.

Posted 3 months ago #
cynic-al - Member

derekrides - 2 wrongs make a right eh? You imply you are religious, I think the new testament says not?

So my position has always been very respectful of the sacrifice made by the men and women that fought that war, and wonder how many of them would be turning in the graves at what the following generations did with the freedom they provided. The CC TV, the Curtailing of freedom of speech, the enforcement of secularism, the state interference.. etc etc.

Erm so you disagree with how certain things are going...and seek to enlist dead war victims in support?

Posted 3 months ago #
El-bent - Member

It was aimed at the programme makers, who couldn't help themselves joining the recent revisionist PC trend of highlighting what they view as 'bad' bits of the war. I can assure you, no-one who lived through the Blitz, or any of those Bomber Crews, could give a rats arse as to the outcome of the Dresden Raids, it was just another of a long line of them, historically probably Hamburg was worse and as I said, at the time V2's were falling on London, a secret weapon with no defence options and had Hitler had his way it would have been nuclear.

One can presume that pre-revisionist PC, we only did "good" things? One should always question history that is written by the victors.

Some people like yourself may think this is pouring scorn on a generation that had to do that job, but actually some good has come out of it.

Posted 3 months ago #
derekrides - Member

cynic-al - Member
derekrides - 2 wrongs make a right eh? You imply you are religious, I think the new testament says not?

So my position has always been very respectful of the sacrifice made by the men and women that fought that war, and wonder how many of them would be turning in the graves at what the following generations did with the freedom they provided. The CC TV, the Curtailing of freedom of speech, the enforcement of secularism, the state interference.. etc etc.
Erm so you disagree with how certain things are going...and seek to enlist dead war victims in support?

As usual simpleton that I am, I'm struggling to understand the two wrongs bit, I guess you mean by that the wrong of the area bombing, laid bare by modern PC thinking? I'm not particularly religious, but did live in the tail end of that period at which time religion or Christianity was part and parcel of life back then, just as it was at school, at sunday school, at scouts, pretty much everywhere kids got sent and it did no harm really, not particularly a thread to discuss religion on as much as I know it's a crime to be a God botherer here.
So in answer to your last statement, yes, I guess that's about it, I disagree with the way things are now and am pretty damn sure those old boys that didn't come back would be the worse for knowing how their sacrifice has been squandered not to mention dishonoured by latter generations.

Posted 3 months ago #
derekrides - Member

El-bent - Member

One can presume that pre-revisionist PC, we only did "good" things? One should always question history that is written by the victors.

We'll be in holocaust denial the way this thread is going.

Posted 3 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

what holocaust?

Posted 3 months ago #
TooTall - Member

Are you saying that TV audiences are incabable of watching a documentary without a celebrity presenter?

Former member of M People making physics-based TV that appeals to the masses?

Making science and history shows that appeal to a wider audience has to be a good thing. Having suffered many hours of lectures from professors of history, I'd take someone who can tell a tale over someone who can research one.

Posted 3 months ago #
ScottChegg - Member

Former member of M People

Or D:Ream, as any fule no.

Unless you are proposing Heather Small narrates a Brief History of Time?

And did anyone else wonder what derek meant when he said

I was touched by the old girl that riveted, in more ways than one...

Posted 3 months ago #
trailmonkey - Member

One should always question history ~~that is written by the victors~~.

the idea that the defeated have an untainted recollection of the past is a tad naive, no ?

smoked salmon blinis, anyone ?

Posted 3 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

There's nothing posh about you trailmonkey, you're just some middle-class herbert who thinks he's an intellectual and that the BBC's choices for mass viewing is too lowbrow for him. The world is full of pretentious intellectual pygmies who frown disapprovingly at anything which is 'popular'.

Posted 3 months ago #
trailmonkey - Member

mmmmmmmmkay

could i risk making sir feel a little more inadequate by suggesting that he finds a definition for the phrase disproportionate reaction

in the meantime

Posted 3 months ago #
ernie_lynch - Member

by suggesting that he finds a definition for the phrase disproportionate reaction

Here's a good example of "disproportionate reaction" :

trailmonkey - Member

next................louis spence narrates the importance of inland waterways to russian imperial expansion.

No mate, the BBC won't be having any programmes with regards to "the importance of inland waterways to russian imperial expansion". If anyone is interested in that topic then reading a book or attending lectures would be a better solution than watching the telly - whoever the presenter is.

So too was referring to the BBC's Bomber Boys as having been "dumbed down". You might not have liked it, but it wasn't "dumbed down".......they didn't turn it into a musical or organise a phone-in competition ffs.

Posted 3 months ago #
trailmonkey - Member

So too was referring to the BBC's Bomber Boys as having been "dumbed down". You might not have liked it, but it wasn't "dumbed down"........they didn't turn it into a musical or organise a phone-in competition ffs.

Oh right, see i thought that 'ewan fires the machine gun', ewan does some rivetting','ewan navigates the plane'was exactly that, though in all honesty, it would have been far more entertaining to see louis spence do it.

Posted 3 months ago #
BigEaredBiker - Member

I thought the programme was a good entertaining watch, it certainly wasn't a proper history documentary as it only skimmed across what is a massive, and at times controversial subject.

The biggest shame I thought was the fact that the actual flying of the Lancaster was over and done with very quickly, and after showing him fighting to get the DC3 airborne they then did not go into any detail about difficult and dangerous getting a fully laden heavy bomber airborne was.

If you actually watch wartime footage of Lancasters, Halifaxes, or Stirlings taking off with 8000 lbs of bombs and fuel for 12 hours of flying it must have been terrifying. Many aircrew died on take off as a tyre blowout or engine failure could easily seem them crash and burn before they had even got off the ground. Very different to the clip of the BBMF Lanc practically leaping away from the ground!

Posted 3 months ago #
slimjim78 - Member

Jesus, please save us from the pedanti

Posted 3 months ago #
El-bent - Member

the idea that the defeated have an untainted recollection of the past is a tad naive, no ?

The only naivety in this statement is thinking that others are naive.

We'll be in holocaust denial the way this thread is going.

Childish thing to say. Do you believe totally the History the Romans wrote about themselves, and that all those they conquered were barbarians?

Posted 3 months ago #
fisha - Member

I'm just after watching the programme and thought it was interesting, pretty well balanced and for 90 mins to cover 4 to 5 years of an aspect of war, you'll never get all the info in.

Came on here and saw the post thinking it would be some more interesting chat about it and the aspects it touched on, and it's disappointing how petty the arguments are and how theyve degenerated.

Arguably, the Euans brother is better placed to be a face of the presentation as he has some actual experience of a Lancaster descendent squadron. Rather him than a dryness of having historical facts in a list from someone with no ties to the subject other than knowledge gained from library books.. I think the pair of them showed empathy and real engagement with the old boys and other survivors they spoke to. I'd call it factual entertainment personally.

The old boy that fell out the cockpit, he ended up at the same camp as my great uncle if I heard him correctly. ( who passed away from the shock wave of a dropped bomb whilst on a forced march days before the end of the war ).

Posted 3 months ago #