While I appreciate there are signs warning people about the tram line, you could put 100 flashing lights on Princes Street warning of that danger but it doesn’t take it away.
I like this bit too..
FORCED to overtake? At gunpoint?She had been cycling in rush hour and was forced to overtake stationary buses in the left-hand lane.
I don't get it - people are falling off their bikes because their wheel got caught in the track? Isn't that just being a bit dumb? What did they think would happen if they put their wheel in the track?
That's how I read it, are people going to start claiming as they fell off due to riding into a curb?!
Ah the trams... if ever there was a good place to use guided busways...
But the article goes on to say that there were specific safety recommendations that have not been acted on?
If you know the tracks are there, and they're iffy to ride near, wouldn't you avoid riding near them?
It's not like it's a pothole, which appear in random locations and there may be no warning.
I bet they didn't all get their wheels caught in the tracks. I bet some of them skidded on the tracks when they were wet.
This has happened to me. On FAKE tram tracks that they installed in my local shopping precinct. Just to catch me out 😳
[edit]I couldn't sue, cos it ain't legal to ride in a shopping precinct!
I've crashed on the tram lines in Sheffield.
Never occoured to me to sue them.
It's a tram line, it's going to be slippery and/or hold your wheel, best just to avoid them.
If you know the tracks are there, and they're iffy to ride near, wouldn't you avoid riding near them?
Again, the article seems to imply there hasn't been much effort to avoid dangerous cyclelane/tram-track interactions.
Not everyone on a bike is a gnaarrrrr superb rider. Cycling on streets should be safe for everyone, even the inexperienced.
IHN +1
It doesn't help that much of that article seems to be a lawyer having a good mental tug over the thought of a big pile of cash, mind.
As above, people have crashed on the tram lines in Sheffield (me included who went to hop over one sideyways and ended up in the 'slot').
Many have sued, sadly.
I detect a marketing opportunity
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“If complete segregation from trams isn’t offered then it will be possible for people to cycle in the same space as the trams. Given the schedule, there will be large gaps between approaching trams and it should be fairly obvious when a tram is around because of the bells they carry.
If the tracks do not give it away first that is...
Having seen the tracks I did wonder when this would be an issue. Mind you they have been building it for long enough so it is not like it sprung up over night. While I sympathise for those that have fallen off I do not believe that they should be able to claim. What happens if they decide to ride into some other street furniture such as lamp posts or signs and fall off because they did not see it. Yeah it is a wheel trap if you ride down it and not across it but you do not need to be the sharpest knife in the drawer to work that out.
Not everyone on a bike is a gnaarrrrr superb rider. Cycling on streets should be safe for everyone, even the inexperienced.
This.
Autumn 2005 and questions to TIE on the subject of bikes and tram lines were ignored. They didn't seem to have considered the risk.
Looking at the layout of the tramlines last week my thought was that there's a part of the city I just won't ride into any more.
A nearly came a cropper on a level crossing once as I was turning quite hard across the rails and they were wet.
Front wheel was washing out but I caught it in time and the bike recovered once it was past the rail.
It would have been a rather sore face - tarmac interface. It would not have occurred to me to try and sue anyone for it. Just don't ride into fairly obvious hazards would seem to be the answer.
Pretty sure I saw signs up the last time I was in Edinburgh pointing out the tram lines
Yes, I agree that it's should be made as safe as possible for people to ride, but you can only go so far, white lines, manhole covers and road furniture is always going to be slippy or imoveable if you hit it.
A tram line is always going to have to have a slot for the flange of the (tram)wheel to go into and even if the rest of the road surface is flush to the top of the rail it's still going to be slippy with a slot down the side.
[quote=richmtb ]
Pretty sure I saw signs up the last time I was in Edinburgh pointing out the tram lines
There are signs everywhere, big poles for the overheads and the rails aren't exactly inconspicuous. Plus - it's hardly been a secret that they're being installed.
I buckled a wheel and punctured after my back wheel slipped along the wet tramlines on Princes Street. Managed to stay upright which was just as well as there was a bus right behind me.
Edinburghs councils execution of the tram project has been shocking and a national embaressment.
If someone can let me know how to post up pics I will show you just how idiotic they have been and why I see no reason they shouldn't be held responsible for cyclist falling and injuring themselves
At a local railway museum they have rubber covers to fill the space between the rails so a bicycle wheel can't get stuck as it needs the weight of a train/tram to compress them.
Could they not just do the same in Edinburgh?
"Great British Public in lack of common sense" shocker.
not just an edinburgh issue.
i ride through malin bridge and hillsborough every day.
think i cross about 14 individual rails on the way to work.
each way. sketchy!
far worse on road bike than mtb.
saying this a common sense issue suggests these people have never commuted along these kind of lines. V. hard to avoid being in a dodgy position some times.
that said. i'd never consider suing over it..
[quote=neninja ]At a local railway museum they have rubber covers to fill the space between the rails so a bicycle wheel can't get stuck as it needs the weight of a train/tram to compress them.
Could they not just do the same in Edinburgh?
Guessing they wont have the budget 🙂
[quote=bauchlebastart ]If someone can let me know how to post up pics
Get URL for Image, click [b]IMG[/b] button above, enter URL in dialog box, job done. (if using flickr use the share my photo link and choose BBB option)
Meh, I slipped on some wet tram tracks in Sheffield a while ago, proper rapid wash out. Buggered my knee, needed new bar tape and a fair few scuffs to levers, my knuckles and QR levers.
Did I sue them? Did I chuff! It was my own damn fault for playing silly buggers and not paying attention. I've not done again, and I've managed to keep upright since. It's not exactly difficult... Some people need to get over the need to externalise blame.
B_Leach - Member
Some people need to get over the need to externalise blame.
Amen, the thought of suing for riding into a tram track makes me shudder, what is society going to be like in another decade or two if these sorts of cases are paid out?
Ah, I know...
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It might be worth showing the cycle lane in question, to understand why some non-hardcore riders might find it tricky:
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Edinburgh City Council says, despite appearances, that that's not a cycle lane and bikes shouldn't use it.
[url= http://www.theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2012/06/opinion-trams-and-bikes-do-they-mix/ ]A link with some pics of where the lines go[/url]
Not posted links before so hope that works.
If you can avoid those lines when you're in that lane, please tell me how so I can too.
Looking at those pics, it would only take a pedestrian stepping off the kerb and you'll be straight into the track.
More than that Ransos. If you look at bencooper's pic, the orange covered lights ahead mark a junction where if you want to go straight ahead you have to be in the lane with the tram lines. Left lane goes left.
In BenCoopers pic the lane ahead is closed with big barriers across it. 🙄
I rest my case.
Its proof of nothing other than sub-standard reporting and a solicitor drumming for business if you ask me....
A report [u][b]from Thompsons Solicitors [/b][/u]has revealed 74 cyclists suffered spills on Princes Street
CITY chiefs[u][b] could face [/b][/u]a compensation bill of [u][b]up to[/b][/u] £1 million from cyclists
Blimey, that lane is actually worse than the article led me to think it would be
In BenCoopers pic the lane ahead is closed with big barriers across it
And of course, those barriers are going to be there when the project finishes.
[quote=oldbloke ]In BenCoopers pic the lane ahead is closed with big barriers across it
And of course, those barriers are going to be there when the project finishes.
See the cones down the left side of the photo?
See the gap between the traffic island and the nearside rail?
Blimey, that lane is actually worse than the article led me to think it would be
I used to ride it every morning and it isn't that bad, in fact, getting into that lane a few hundred metres earlier is far, far, scarier and more dangerous, and there aren't even any tram lines there, just several lanes of irate BMWs and taxis trying to break the sound barrier. That section of green lane has slow moving buses and is very short.
weird double post
oldbloke » In BenCoopers pic the lane ahead is closed with big barriers across it
And of course, those barriers are going to be there when the project finishes.Druidh >> See the cones down the left side of the photo? See them???
Absolutely no excuse for current accidents on that section, but are you suggesting that's not going to be a source of trouble in future?
The rest of the street does have similar designed sections which are open. I just don't have a pic of them.
WTF is next? suing the council for putting nasty hard tarmac on the roads because it hurts when you fall on it??
if these morons can't see and avoid i gigantic metal groove in the road maye they don't have mental capacity to ride a bike at all, put them in nice padded buses.
I wouldn't be to keen to ride along the new tracks in Droylesden in Manchester, the tracks swerve from one side of the road to the other. Watching the cyclists who use these routes, they have to make a major effort to cross the tracks at 90 degrees. It's a situation made worse by all the roadworks happening as part of the installation. I can imgaine it's quite easy to suddenly find the tracks cutting in front of you at a nasty angle and not be in a position to line yourself up to cross them.
if these morons can't see and avoid i gigantic metal groove in the road maye they don't have mental capacity to ride a bike at all, put them in nice padded buses.
Um, right. How do you avoid the tracks in the picture I posted? I suppose you could bunnyhop into the bike lane and out again.
[quote=bencooper ]if these morons can't see and avoid i gigantic metal groove in the road maye they don't have mental capacity to ride a bike at all, put them in nice padded buses.
Um, right. How do you avoid the tracks in the picture I posted? I suppose you could bunnyhop into the bike lane and out again.
It's easy. You cycle along to the left of the nearside rail - where the traffic cones are in that photo.
That's a pretty narrow gap between the rail and the other lane - your handlebars would be practically overhanging the other lane.
To be fair, the bit where the lanes merge into one and force you to cross the track is a bugger.
I remember side-hopping my road bike over the tracks, fearing that I'd lose my skinny tyre in it. Must be a nightmare for less confident folk.
I now avoid Princess Street and commute over Morrison St / West Port which is longer and climbier but way less bonkers than Princess Street which IMO is broken for cyclists.
The comments section against that story is depressing.
"Cyclists, if you really feel you must cycle, throw your bike in the back of the car, go somewhere that's suitable for cycling and cycle away until your heart's content. It's just not worth the risk cycling in a pot hole ridden city centre like Edinburgh. You'll get fit and possibly live longer by avoiding the inevitable."
Etc.
There's no real excuse for a council to ignore valid and important safety guidance no matter how "obvious" the results might seem.
You wouldn't build cycle lanes with barbed wire fences either side either and get all defensive on the basis that the wire was visible and therefore it was the rider's own silly fault that they veered into it.
Not everyone's a confident cyclist and if you put dangerous hazards in their environment, however obvious, there are a myriad of reasons (other than the ignorance/complacency implied by many on this thread) that people might find their way into them
[quote=ormondroyd ] there are a myriad of reasons (other than the ignorance/complacency implied by many on this thread) that people might find their way into them
Including being "forced" to overtake a bus?
Irrelevant really, but do you wait behind every stationary vehicle that blocks your path, until it moves? You must have slow average times. There'd be skeletons on bikes if everyone did that
If it's safer to hold station rather than overtake, that's what I do. YMMV.
Me too, but you have no idea if those buses she's talking about were moving on or not. As I say, it's not really relevant to the wider point. If there have been 80 accidents before the trams have even started, then there's something forseeably wrong with the layout, in my view, enough that the council's duty of care is the main point, not the abilities or decisions of individual riders.
why does Edinburger even need a tram?
I got caught out by the tram tracks a few years back. I was quite drunk at the time. Can I sue?
Looking at those pics, it would only take a pedestrian stepping off the kerb and you'll be straight into the track.
Was this pedestrian hiding behind a passing leaf or something?
🙄
what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.
Interesting to see what happens next then:
[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-20469154 ]Princes Street to open to all traffic[/url]
Do I have to break anything to win a few grand or will bruising do?
[quote=jimmy ]what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.
I'm pretty sure LB buses are fitted with external CCTV, so if you took a note of the route and number they'd be able to look it up for you. They have a reputation of being pretty stringent in training drivers how to deal with cyclists.
+1 for Lothian buses. They are by far and away the best company when it comes to having respect for people on bikes.
I think the point that a lot on here seem to be missing is that the roads should be safe enough for your granny to nash down the shop for a loaf on her pashley with wicker basket. The fact that a lot on here shred the gnarr down Princes street is really irrelevant as if the road has been badly designed to the detriment of road users then someone will pay (the council)
it would only take a pedestrian stepping off the kerb and you'll be straight into the track.
+1 This was a daily occurrence when I used to cycle down a tram route and it was only a 200metre section. You try doing a bunny hop over the line when someone wearing headphones steps straight into your path. It's all good in theory but in the real world you will be taken by surprise, it will be dark and the tram lines wet and you'll be on a road bike with skinny tyres, your weight over the front because you have drop bars and you'll be emergency braking. A colleague went over the bars broke his scapula and held up the trams for an hour whilst the ambulance extracted him. I don't think he got any compensation.
I wish I could sue the reactionary Daily Mail idiots that pepper this forum...
Stop behaving like cyclists are riding on the roads as some sort of cap doffing victims. YOU OWN THE ROADS TOO.
“Local cycle campaigners had repeatedly voiced concerns about the hazards of Edinburgh’s tram scheme."
"The council has not acted on safety recommendations such as a two-way cycle lane, or improved lighting and signage to warn cyclists of danger."
"this legal challenge isn’t just about cyclists and tram lines. It is about the duties of highway authorities to take proper account of cyclists’ safety, whatever they are designing."
And finally:
"It’s a priority to improve safety right across the city and the council’s coalition agreement commitment to invest 5 per cent of the transport budget on provision for cyclists will help achieve this."
Edinburgh is going to have have some freekin' cycling network if the council spend 5% of the £776m that's being spent on trams. Oh, I see, you don't mean 5% of that budget...
From this
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to this...
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Plenty of room between the nearside rail and the next lane - even more at the traffic island.
This was a bit more worrying though...
[img] https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lwLiFbfsKf8/ULY1PSOC_iI/AAAAAAAABN0/sUGxvWKmNT4/s1473/IMAG0223.jp g" target="_blank">
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lwLiFbfsKf8/ULY1PSOC_iI/AAAAAAAABN0/sUGxvWKmNT4/s1473/IMAG0223.jp g"/> [/img]
That's a bad angle to be crossing those rails at.
[img]
Plenty of room between the nearside rail and the next lane
Really?
Look at where the blue corsa in the background is. Look s like handlebar scraping territory to me.
Really. The gap between the rail and the nearside lane is about the same width as most cycletracks.
ormondroyd - MemberCycling on streets should be safe for everyone, even the inexperienced.
Good luck with that plan.
Haha, i was just thinking i should go take pics druidh!
The width is easily 1 meter, so roughly the width of any cycle lane.
As for the tracks turning, thats a bit more of a problem! Was thinking that about coming down lothian road, and having to cross the tracks before turning onto shandwick place/princess street.
druidh - MemberReally. The gap between the rail and the nearside lane is about the same width as most cycletracks.
It may be but I'd say it's too narrow for many - you need more width when there's undertaking cars to the left rather than a kerb.
So that gap is 1m wide, so a cyclist will ride pretty much in the middle of it and his/her elbow will be above the line between the tram lane and the traffic lane to the left. Exactly as per the photo above.
Then a car/van/bus/lorry comes along and can't leave a safe amount of space.
Part of that is that the 1m is split into two sections by that rubbish join. So the 1m wide 'lane' is actually 2 lanes, one 40cm wide with a slippery track at the edge of it, and the other is 60cm wide with a lane of traffic passing within a foot of your elbow.
I'd probably bunny hop it and ride down the middle of the two rails. Not very good for granny on her town bike though...
There are lots of cycle lanes which go between two lines of cars.cynic-al - Memberyou need more width when there's undertaking cars to the left rather than a kerb.
Alternatively, if you can't cycle along a 1 metre wide lane between a rail and a car, you might consider whether you should be allowed on two wheels at all.
The thing is, it's not as easy to avoid lines as druidh makes out.
I live in Sheffield and on my old commute you HAD to cross the lines twice. No way around it, at all- if you wanted to cross one street you would have to take a 7 mile detour. This is after having ridden in a 2 foot wide gap with traffic and trams squeezing by.
I have crashed on the lines that you have to cross, I hit a car and caused damage and cracked my frame, bent my bars, trashed an STi and bent my rear wheel. I'm an experienced rider and had slowed down significantly for them but the angle you hit them on a wet day means that you're risking sliding into the groove regardless of how good you are.
No one is immune from this, but inexperienced riders wobbling all over the edge of the road aren't stupid for falling into them. I'd say 90% of cyclists don't realise that they are at particular risk of sliding on metal. It sounds stupid to you, but it's not obvious. A drain cover poses no threat at all when you're walking or in a car and if you've been cycling 6 months with no cycling mates to explain things to you then you aren't going to leap to that conclusion.
what worries me, and I've seen it all-too-often, is the proximity with which buses tail a cyclist if they can't over take. Talking 1 bike's length behind the often-shuggly-and-not-confident cyclist. Now, if said cyclist WAS to stray into the tram lines (or pot hole, or stray pedestrian etc) what are the chances of that bus stopping without bulldozing the cyclist? Would like to get this kind of tailing filmed on my phone some time and ask Lothian Buses about that one.
Yeah I see this a lot too and it makes me cringe every time, just takes one slipped gear or pedal slip and it is under the bus we go. By and large LRT drivers are superb around cyclists and I wish taxis and First bus would follow their lead (and all other drivers for that point).
druidh - Member
Alternatively, if you can't cycle along a 1 metre wide lane between a rail and a car, you might consider whether you should be allowed on two wheels at all.
So 10-25cm either side of your hands is safe, when riding between a rail and a car or 2 cars?
You might want to consider whether you should post on the internet.
Alternatively, here's a pic about how much space there should be around bikes, that I think you've posted on/supported previously?
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