Yep got it, the way it was written didnt make sense to me I thought he meant 250 of the 600 was paid as tax not 250 was paid as tax on the 600.. blah blah

Private healthcare errodes why you need nhs ….. If anything it takes the burden off the nhs for the life threatening stuff id still want to be nhs for …..

I have nothing but good things to say about the nhs after the way they have treated my dad over the last 20 years – its very confusing being 10 and being told your 30 year old very active dad has had multiple heart attacks.

I view the private healthcare as for getting stuff fixed that is annoying or things nhs view as non time critical.

I had a frozen neck – went to see the doc , he said well by the time you get a physio on the nhs it will have sorted its self , i suggest you pay for private physio. I said oh i have bupa cover , he said great , your neck will be sorted by the end of next week , referral . Phoned , appointment made next day im in physio , 3 sessions and my necks fine.

But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?

Its more relevant and useful than religion.
FWIW the it referred to the NHS so if you take the quote out of context it does look stupid.

The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see’s the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.

I think most folk would agree that if you wish to erode the NHS what you do, and it is happening, is replace it[NHS] with private provision via creeping privatisation and more people using private healthcare. This is the conflict as we all know folk wont accept an absence of healthcare.

Free choice. I like the NHS but its limited resources dont give me the security and waiting times that I want/need. Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue? I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.
Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.

Your choice is the entirely correct one. If I could get my family private health care I would. The problem is the nhs isnt providing a good enough service and I would rather that was fixed with more taxation than people needing private healthcare in order to get the care they need. If that makes me a dangerous socialist radical in your view I can live with that.

Is it wrong to pay extra to get into a separate queue?

Is it fair that you can better health care than someone else?

I am still paying for the NHS place, but am freeing it for someone else to take.

I dont think it always works like that and tbh you admit you are doing it for yourself rather than for society.

Some people on here really would have everything run from a politbureau with everything provided by the state.

Its much easier to make to beat that straw man argument than attack fairness. i assume that is why you made up that argument.
Likw a-a I would prefer we all get a better and equal service rather than just the wealthy.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.

.I am happy to listen to why this is unfair or wrong.

So where do you draw the line? Everyone gets any and everything, private rooms for all, elective surgery. It would be great up the cost of bringing the system up to that level would be huge.

The NHS is being de-stabilised on a grand scale (for one thing, Parliament should pass an emergency act to revoke ruinous PFI contracts…) – and so it’s hay-making time for private healthcare providers.

But they’ll still ship you back into NHS acute care as soon as anything goes wrong.

I am still happy to listen so to repeat
Are you able to explain how it is fair that those with money get better health care or are you not able to explain why it is fair?

I dont think that has tried to answer this question tbh but it has side stepped it by posing questions.

FWIW i would imagine that any health care system, no matter how funded or delivered , would face the issues you raise so could you answer the question repeated above rather than distract with “questions”?

Comrade Junta-yard:
Yes I do think its fair that if I pay more I get more. Thats how economics works. You seem to believe that we could specify the “ultimate NHS” for all and somehow have the funds to pay for this as a country? I would support paying more into the NHS, but it will never have enough money put into it to be “the best there is”, therefore it’s free will if I and others (for the benefit of me, my family, not society) choose to spend some of the money we have earnt and paid taxes on for a better health care provision.
I put a lot into society and I believe in a civil society funded by a fair and progressive taxation system. I also believe that my family come first. No conflict of interest as I see it.

Interesting point about whether or not it is fair to get quicker access to health care if you are better-off. It’s no more fair or unfair than the income differences between families. If you think about the health issues that poverty can bring, such as poor nutrition, inadequate housing (damp, lack of heating), etc, then surely we need to look at bringing people out of poverty as much as trying to fix the problem at the stage when the health problems have already developed?

I’ve been paying compulsory private health insurance through work for 13 years, and not always comfortable about being able to ‘jump the queue’ but I’ve just had a spinal fusion op done privately. My back problem was deteriorating, I was getting symptoms in my legs as well as back pain, but the nhs were not keen for a long time to even let me discuss the problem with a consultant. The surgeon told me that while the procedure was clearly not a medical emergency, I would have to curtail my sporting activities without it, so I went for it. This will keep me fitter, happier, and in better cardiovascular health in the long run.
‘

Yeah, fairs a hard thing to define, but you sum it up well Vicky.
As humans I think we all have a self-interest streak, some more than others. For me thats why communism will never work, it goes against human nature to strive for better.
I also value the education and opportunities that society has given me. I earn my money from my own efforts, but its only possible for me to do that because society works. Therefore, if I take more out in salary etc then I think it fair that I pay more in for those less able to contribute. That to me is fair. Do I think it would be fair if everyone had the same? No. There will never be enough resources to give everyone everything, so give everyone a decent standard of living, good education and decent health from the state, but don’t be deluded to think that the state can always give the best there is, and don’t restrict free choice of those that want to pay themselves for something better.

When I ‘signed up’ to the NHS, I was not informed that there would be a 7 month wait for a shoulder op.

Is that fair?

Dont really understand why you think this country couldnt afford quality health care for all.

a-a: define what you mean by quality. Then tell me how much “quality” would cost more than current. Then tell me that “cost of quality”+x% would not be even better quality.
I support paying for a good NHS through taxation (and would support more funds going into it), but the reality is that there is always the +x% more that would make it EVEN better….and some people choose to pay this x% from their taxed income.

anagallis_arvensis – Member The problem is the nhs isnt providing a good enough service

Hang on a minute – it’s the envy of the world, what are you saying?

if that makes me a dangerous swivel eyed RW loon in your view I can live with that.

FTFY

CR – define fair. You essentially have two competing models of how to allocate scare resources – either by price or by waiting/rationing. People will claim that both are fairer than the other. You decide…

Government spending continues to increase as a % of GDP and health has been/is a constant percentage of that. Why is every in going on about being willing to fund it? Even the Tories ring fence health and let other essential services suffer as a result.

Where do you want it (the spending) to rise to AA?

It’s no more fair or unfair than the income differences between families.

Its not though is it. I have paid my fair share into the nhs in the expectation I will get good quality care back. I havent paid towards a flash car or a big house. Also the state part funds the training for all these people providing better care for rich people. So its not a simple case of fair or not fair.

Put Lord Sugar and/or Philip Green in charge. That’ll sort it out.

Where do you want it (the spending) to rise to AA?

I dont know I’m a teacher not a healthcare expert but all the stories on this thread of xy and z not being done on the nhs when people think they were a matter of life and death point to problems. My step dads brain surgery was recently delayed by 2 weeks due to a lack of beds. Thats not great.

Turn the health budget into a property portfolio?????

CG….jeez no!! Lord Sugar…the maker of cheap hifi’s and rubbish computers in the 1980’s.
Philip Green… importer of chinese tat clothing.
We need doctors in charge not accountants. People who are led by value for money, not cheap. Would rather see the boss of Aldi run the NHS than I would the boss of Top Shop.

Well you seem to be questioning some proposed solutions in favour of spending more money. We have tried that for many generations and that does not seem to be satisfying you. So what about something different?

aa: I think we are mixing up two things on this thread…

1. Should the NHS be funded to be a good/great system? My answer is yes, and that probably costs more than we pay as a nation now.
2. Will this funded NHS (or the current underfunded one!) always be able to offer miniscule wait times and latest mega expensive procedures? No, there will always be something better than the state can fund, and for this I think its our free will as individuals if we choose to pay for something better than the NHS. I still pay my taxes for the NHS provision, so I end up paying twice.

Ok then THM hit us with your solution? I also havent seen any lroposed solution and dont recall being critical of them.
CHB I agree with point 1 and point 2 to an extent but where the line in the sand is is tricky bit. Also when we have the state subsidising the private sector I feel its way out of kilter.

NHS has failings of course it does but it’s good a majority of the time and when’s it’s good it exceptional nothing comes close.

Dealt with a case this am in the early hours that comprised of using several crews and almost a dozen staff, there was no compromise through out, no thought of how can we get more profit out of this case, the whole time was spent making sure the patient got the best possible care. It would have cost thousands not one penny of that is for share holders or bosses, it was all for the care of the patient.

CHB – may I give one example of how ‘business brains’ are needed? A particular medication exists for a number of folk with a specific condition for which the usual treatment for this common condition does not work. Apologies for sentence construction!

These people are being told by their GPs/consultants that the CCG’s will no longer fund this medication and they will have to take the usual treatment despite it not working for their specific condition.

There is only one supplier of this medication to the NHS and the cost is huge. Recently there were supply problems so the NHS was having to source this product from outside the UK and no doubt it cost more too.

I can buy this medication from outside the EU for considerably less than the NHS are being charged.

It’s this sort of incompetence that is costing the NHS money. There is no excuse for only having one supplier!

So what about something different?

Continental social-insurance problems merely swap one set of problems for another. In terms of providing comprehensive cover, NO developed healthcare system is escaping the challenges faced by the NHS.

Certain stuff is amenable to market provision – but platitudes about choice & competition become increasingly meaningless as acuity (i.e. requiring emergency/high care) increases. The current fragmentation of the NHS should concern everybody, of whatever ideological view – especially as regards workforce training and acute capacity.

the whole time was spent making sure the patient got the best possible care

This. The absolute definition of “good value”.

a-a: agree…introduction of private into public has to be done VERY carefully. There are plenty of big nasty ruthless companies out there that would happily screw the NHS out of every last penny for minimal return. The PFI hospitals (and schools for that matter) are some atrocious contracts and will cost the tax payer a fortune. Perversely they were mainly signed up to by a Labour government!

However this same need for value for money and quality of service is managed in the private sector all the time. I don’t believe that just because some private companies have screwed themselves a good deal out of the state, that ALL public/private enterprises are doomed.
I think an NHS and an education system where 90% of employees are working for the state is the right way of doing it. We should ensure that the 10% (or whatever figure it is) of “contractors” don’t milk the system.

CG…I work in procurement. I know how skewed public sector procurement is AGAINST the state. All the rules mainly protect the companies, who litigate if the public sector buyers are not 100% following the procedures. Would not want to work in this area for a public organisation. This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic. 🙂

This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic

It’s very on-topic. PFI contracts (many, as you say, signed off by NuLav) are having a major effect on frontline care.

Edit: my post above should read “Continental social-insurance systems merely swap one set of problems for another…” Doh.

This risks hijacking this thread though, as its a bit off topic.

CHB – no, it isn’t. It’s one example of why people like me are having to pay for private treatment as our taxes aren’t spent wisely hence less money in the pot.

noteeth: happy for it to be included as “on-topic”, but the start of the thread was whether private insurance is good or bad. The topic of private vs public is different for me. If private sector is allowed into public sector than it has to be arranged to be of net benefit to the public. There are some shocking contracts out there. Another thing thats a worry is the threat of USA medical companies suing the NHS for access to NHS contracts.
I am not naive to the pitfalls of what can go wrong, but just because some contracts are wrong does not make the idea wrong always.

the start of the thread was whether private insurance is good or bad

Aye – but (as per CG’s post) the terms of that debate are being affected by PFI, badly-planned reforms etc, and the knock-on effect upon waiting lists, bed occupancy, overstretch in acute care (loss of elective theatre capacity, ops being cancelled for lack of HDU/ITU beds & so forth). The [mis-]management of the NHS will certainly provide opportunities for private insurance companies… now where’s my tinfoil hat? 😉

Comrade Junta-yard:

If we must do childish schoolyard level insults can they at least be amusing or vaguely accurate? Do you even know what the word means ?

Yes I do think its fair that if I pay more I get more. Thats how economics works.

I doubt anyone would like to look at capitalism/economics and argue it is morally fair.
Is it really fair for the people who get less than you or less than Vicky cannot have the operation ? Really you think a two speed system is fair? I can only assume you are in the fast lane as it is clearly unfair

You seem to believe that we could specify the “ultimate NHS” for all and somehow have the funds to pay for this as a country?

Could you highlight the bit where you think I have said that – straw man BS

therefore it’s free will if I and others (for the benefit of me, my family, not society) choose to spend some of the money we have earnt and paid taxes on for a better health care provision.

Honest but not fair

I put a lot into society and I believe in a civil society funded by a fair and progressive taxation system. I also believe that my family come first. No conflict of interest as I see it.

We all put our family first but in respect to this that means your fair is you and your children getting better than the majority of the rest of the population and their children – again not fair.

If you are comfortable with you having more then that is fine but , as you admit, putting them first is not fair its just self interest.

Hey, I thought that was a pretty amusing morphing of your user name, but then my humour is not for all. Junta is effectively what you have in many socialist states, and they are far from fair.
We seem to have incompatible versions of what fair means. I have explained to the best of my ability what my version of fair is. I can only wish you well if it sits incongruous to your understanding of the world.

Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.

There’s your basic problem with the NHS. Lack of funding.

As you cannot afford private healthcare, you also cannot afford the extra tax required to bring the NHS up to a level where people would not consider private healthcare to be worth having.

Back on topic – avoiding the politics.

My family have Insurance (as ex pats). Free for employees but we pay for our children to be covered. Approx $1,000pa, per child. If we came back to the UK, we would, without a doubt, go private.

When our eldest (now almost 3) was born, we found out he had a congenital heart disease. Unfortunately, neither maternity nor congenital ‘problems’ were covered by our insurance. After much deliberation, research and sleepless nights, we decided to stay abroad (in The Philippines) and pay for the surgery out of our own pockets rather than play the health lottery back in the UK. The statistics re. op complications, mortality rates, super-bug infections etc meant we’d have sold our kidneys rather than come home. Our research included first hand experiences of people in a support group whose children had the same issues as our boy. One of those in the group sold their house to pay for private health care in the UK.

The care we received privately couldn’t have been better. Even small things like the pediatric cardiologist gave us his mobile number and once answered his phone at 3am when we were worrying ourselves and wanted to talk to him.

Our son needed the op at pretty short notice (1 week) and we needed to get a 50% deposit ($15,000) within 36 hours. The surgeon, who we’d got to know well, offered to lend us the cash – a personal loan.

Having seen the hell my wife’s family went through when he father was diagnosed with late stage cancer (he died very shortly after the diagnosis from MRSI), I can’t help but think that the NHS is a gamble and my family’s health isn’t something I’d gamble with.

Just had an interesting conversation.

If you are having an operation at your local private hospital, try not to bleed too much. They only carry very small stocks of blood reserve, as obviously it costs money to buy and store it.

If something goes a bit wrong they either put their finger on the bleed and put you in an ambulance, or put their finger on it and wait for a taxi to bring more blood from the local NHS hospital.

When you get seen quickly privately, and have posh wall paper, dont forget that the expensive medical stuff that they really need, they dont buy because afterall they are there to make a profit 🙂

I used to have it through a company I worked for and used it quite a bit. Self employed now and dont have it but it is a good thing to have.