just gives them more for their extra money. Which whilst not part of a socialist utopian dream, is possibly fairer.

[quote]

Interesting concept of fair

Put Channel 4 on now for an hour then tell me the NHS does’t work. I bet you can’t.

No saying it doesn’t work but if you are not on the emergency priority list it can let people down when there is not enough capacity hence people can end up with more issues due to waiting than if they had gone private. It’s a finite resource and can’t be pulled in all directions.

I get cover for me + the Mrs through work, and pay extra to add the kids.
We’ve used it a few times.
My daughter had a cyst on her eyelid, had been there a few weeks, so we visited the GP. She says come back in 3 months for us to review as it is regarded as ‘non-essential’ and sometimes they go on their own.
We mentioned the private health insurance and a brochure is produced from GPs desk drawer.
within days we are sitting in front of a consultant (at a convenient time – early evening) and 2 weeks later she has an operation, in an NHS hospital, performed by the same consultant – early doors before he starts his NHS list.

Same daughter has had dietary problems since birth (milk + wheat intolerance) we used the health insurance to access Genetic testing to diagnose Coeliac disease before these tests were available on the NHS – the alternative (offered by NHS) was to make her eat wheat for a month and do a biopsy.

I’m not really bothered by the morals of it all – I pay enough tax to cover my access to the NHS if/when we need it, but when your kids need something and you don’t want to wait, jumping the waiting list is worth the cost.

However, I am a massive fan of the NHS and feel we are lucky to have it.

PHI just gives them more for their extra money. Which whilst not part of a socialist utopian dream, is possibly fairer

In what world [ or moral code] is it fairer that your access to health care is controlled by how much money you have to pay for it?
I dont think you need to be a socialist to want everyone to have free and equal access to health care.

I work in private health care so I’m slightly biased, however this story always sticks with me.

A few years ago my mum started having headaches and general weird sensations. She went to the GP who referred her to the hospital. After the obligatory wait she had an MRI scan. At the follow up consultation which took all of 10 minutes, she was shown the scan which revealed lesions on the brain and she was told she had Multiple Sclerosis. She was sent on her way with virtually no follow up support and was absolutely devestated by the diagnosis.

I wasn’t happy with the way her treatment had been handled and convinced her to get a 2nd opinion privately. She contacted the private hospital, got the consultation arranged instantly and a couple of days later went along to the private facility and was subjected to a battery of tests and examinations. Far more thorough than an MRI and 10 minute consultation.

The end result was the private treatment and tests confirmed it wasn’t MS, the symptoms she’d been experiencing were aura migraines and the lesions on her brain were quite normal for a woman of her age and medical history.

I’m a big supporter of the NHS but they are extremely under resourced with massive time constraints and unfortunately this is when mis-diagnosis occurs when the doctors can’t spend enough time on each patient. Going private does buy you more time unfortunately.

Also along the years the NHS have managed to un-diagnose my mother’s Crohn’s disease for 8 years, including telling her at one point she was “breathing too much air” and that’s why she was having stomach pains. My mother in-law also collapsed one Sunday afternoon, was rushed to A&E, had a brain scan which “showed nothing”. Two weeks later she collapsed again and when they re-looked at the initial scan they discovered they had failed to spot a grade IV brain tumour. 4 years later she was dead. Hard to say if that initial miss would have made any difference though.

All these people with private healthcare who are such big supporters of the nhs, make me want to strangle kittens with frustration.

It strikes me as a little like going I am not racist BUT tbh

It strikes me as a little like going I am not racist

Except it’s not.

You do know countries can and do operate public and private healthcare systems in tandem and it works perfectly fine.

Private is better for speed and if you want to see Dr x and only Dr x each time. For day case or overnight stay surgery it is good.

Surgery which is anything more there is an argument to support choosing nhs.

As per posts above limiting factor in NHS is capacity. Yes consultants could work more hours but there is also the issue of paying for the extra work at a time when NHS funds are not exactly flowing!

The issue of emily more doctors is workforce modelling is difficult – leaving medical school to becoming an Orthopaedic surgeon as an example – absolute minimum of ten years. So you are always trying to guess how many doctors in x,y or z will be needed in many years to come.

As pointed out above you can choose to be seen at a private hospital through NHS treatment if it’s not emergency stuff.

I have generally had it with work, I have had one bad experience where employer “self-insured” and trying to get them to pay for things was a nightmare, they did all they could to avoid paying. I have had the chance to pay for it personally before but declined. The NHS is what we need to keep us alive but it’s too overstreched to deal with all our ailments and requirements.

@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.

I like the French system where most people in average jobs have top up private insurance policies and you pay at the point of treatment and reclaim.

All these people with private healthcare who are such big supporters of the nhs, make me want to strangle kittens with frustration.

Why does it bother you? Comprehensive NHS care is still “free” for everyone which I think is a good thing. But I don’t see a problem with paying privately for additional cover. Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn’t exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?

Anyway, it’s not like you are opting out of the NHS completely by going private, it’s just an additional resource if you wish to pay for it. So you can actually be a fan of both systems without being hypocritical. If I have a serious accident I’m off to A&E just like everyone else. If I need long term physio or a non-urgent op then I’ll probably go private because I have chosen to pay for it.

Do you expect the private system to be laid on free for everyone and if so who is going to pay for it? Or would you prefer it not to exist simply because you can’t personally afford it or have chosen not to spend your money on it?

For you socialists out there, my wife’s family were brought up under a communist regime (mother-in-law is a Consultant) and the quality of healthcare in that system was largely dependent on who you knew. It was apparently great if you had good contacts in the healthcare industry and f****** dire if you didn’t. Is that a more fair system than ours do you think?

@BoardingBob, yes interesting story. We don’t trust someone to build an extension on our house without getting a few different quotes but we treat one visit to a Doctor as definitive. I make mistakes in my job all the time, I don’t see why we think doctors are any different

@aa why would you want to strangle me (or anyone else) because my employer offers something as part of my job ? In fact its a condition of employment, at the cr@ppy one above I tried to opt out and they refused.

Readings not a strong point of yours is it.

Obviously not everyone can afford it, but if the private system didn’t exist, do you think the NHS would be any better as a result?

Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it. Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.

Its makes me want to strangle kittens because people seem to add the “obviously I think the nhs is great” at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.

Yes or if not better the political will would exist to tax more to pay for it.

So you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you’re not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it’s not fair?

Obviosly this is a utopian dream and just like private education I would not be critical of an individuals choice I would prefer it if people who feel like they need private health care to jump the waiting list or companies feel they need to provide it to help employees made more of a political case for having equal healthcare for all.

Writing is not a strong point of yours is it. If I read the above correctly are you saying I should be boycotting the private system and making a political statement instead? Well I don’t want to be a politician, I just want the best medical care I can afford for my family. It’s not even vastly expensive. Anyone in an average job could choose the same. Perhaps they might have to cancel their Sky subscription or cut down on beer and fags, but it’s all personal choices. This is not some elitist system costing tens of thousands per year (private education is way more elitist in this respect).

You didnt read it correctly but the again I had three kids jumping on me when I wrote it so it doesnt make much sense.
to summarise I would be critical of anyone choosing whats best for their family I would just prefer it if people made more effort to support the nhs from a political point of view if they think its so good.

you would be more than happy to pay more in tax for a better NHS system for all, but presumably you’re not willing to pay for private health insurance on the principle that it’s not fair?

Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.

As for the rest I think your view of average may be somewhat incorrect. You were doing well until you started with the sky subscription crap. Always the right wingers master stroke of stupidity. Stick to reading the daily mail.

Willing to pay more tax yes, cant afford private healthcare though.

How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.

I’d probably be happy paying the extra tax, trying to work out how much is making my head hurt as the £250 I do pay is tax, on top of the cost of the PHI to my employer.

I just think of it as another tax, like my student loan. I wanted more out of the system, so I’m paying more in. Everyone’s welcome to make their own decisions.

Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.
I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You’ve lost me there.

“obviously I think the nhs is great” at the end of the post but the rest of the post shows that they are happy enough with it being a bit dysfunctional.

Not happy with it being dysfunctional at all. What I am happy with is if I have a massive heart attack tomorrow, I’ll be scooped up in an ambulance, taken to hospital and given excellent care.

I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You’ve lost me there.

The premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.

I have it via work and it’s compulsory (I think)

It’s an insurance and if I didn’t have it I wouldn’t take it out. I would self insure put the same payments into a savings account and use it if I needed it.£300 per month over 5 years is £18k enough to pay for most things and you have the NHS to back you up anyway.

If you don’t need to claim for a year or 2 you’re better off.

£18k enough to pay for most things

Its really not. A complicated maternity will cost about 18k. Could be a lot higher and usually is. You also won’t benefit from the discounts insurer gets and you’ll be paying full price for treatment.

Everyone is not welcome to make their own decisions though about paying for private health care if they cannot afford it. Not everyone can afford it.

Yep, not everyone can afford everything. I for example cannot afford a Porche and a Ferrari, on my pay grade it’s got to be one or the other.

Thankfully the NHS is great and free to everyone.

I also dont follow how you pay for privaye healthcare through tax either. You’ve lost me there.

What BB said, for whatever my employer pays for it, I have to pay more on top to HMRC,

Had it through work
Cancelled it 2 months ago after taxable benefit crept up to £1300
3 years before it was £600, company changed insurers and it started creeping up, whilst amount of cover decreased and excess rose.
The problem I had with it was work didn’t tell you the value until it appeared on your P60 at the end of the year
I used it once to claim for some dental treatment, for that it was worth it but the revised policy effectively did away with it as it limited what you could claim for in a year and came with a £200 excess

What I’m saying is check the cover and excesses carefully

premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.

Blah blah blah…still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.

I have it through work. Valued at c£500pa….get taxed on this via benefit in kind at the “appropriate” rate.
The NHS is like the spare ribs at a chinese buffet…there can never be enough supplied to cope with the demand of the needy who think that their £7 eat all you like contribution gets them all the prawns and fillet steak in blackbean sauce you can eat. It doesnt, someone has to pay if you want A* service. NHS is B- and thats still better than most of the world.
oh…I am a huge fan of what the NHS achieves with it limited resources despite being hamstrung by successive government policies.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

premiums charged to an employer by the insurer are assigned a P11D value. You are then taxed on this P11D value as the private health plan is considered a taxable employee benefit.

Blah blah blah…still have no idea what your are talking about!! Sorry.[/quote]
Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.

I have it through work for the family, initially through BUPA and now AXA. Wife had breast cancer last year and treated at the parkside in Wimbledon. Her initial diagnosis was via the NHS and that was super stressful. After surgery to remove the lump, the oncologist said no need for chemo as small lump with no lymph node involvement. BUPA however insisted she has the oncotype DX test, in the US to look further into the biological makeup of the lump. The test is not available on the NHS. Results came back as high risk of recurrence and she needed chemo.

The lesson here is that NHS is reactive, it fixes people at minimum cost and does not focus on prevention / cure. The private sector cannot afford to do that, as reccurrnces cost far more in the long term.

We will always have private, as long as it’s available to us.

Oh, my P11D cost is nearly 3k! Has been even before the last got sick, but that is for all mod cons!

Do you want pictures? Private health insurance through his employer means he pays more tax. Not a hard concept unless you are trying not to understand.

NO just an explanation without any vitriol, obviously tough for you.

https://www.gov.uk/tax-company-benefits/other-company-benefits-youll-pay-tax-on

Private medical insurance offered by an employer is viewed as a benefit by HMRC. As such they assign it a value which will be deducted from your annual tax free allowance. As your tax free allowance is being reduced then you end up paying more tax. That’s it.

I get that thanks. Gping back to the original point, I didnt understand

How much more tax? My PHI nominaly costs £600 a year, which I pay about £250 as tax.

So his healthcare costs£350 but he pays £250 in extra tax? Does not compute.

There is no conflict between supporting the concept of “free at the point of delivery” healthcare and paying for an alternative. Of course, there is an obvious one if the suppliers of both are the same people, but my doctor friends have been playing and benefiting from that game for years.

Look on the supply side not the demand side if you want to spot conflicts and/or moral questions.

[Quote]
Does not compute
[/quote]

Ah, its the old STW classic “I have no idea what I’m talking about but I’ll offer an opinion anyway”…

Most private clinics are too small to have an intensive care unit – so if even a standard operation has complications they ship you to a NHS hospital regardless..

its the old STW classic “I have no idea what I’m talking about but I’ll offer an opinion anyway”…

I havent offered an opinion Ive asked for help in understanding something I dont know about.

There is no conflict between supporting the concept of “free at the point of delivery” healthcare and paying for an alternative. 

A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. The conflicts dont really lie with the individual but with how society see’s the nhs. The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded. I would have no problem with people getting nicer rooms and better meals but better treatment for private patients undermines the whole thing.

The more people have private health care the more its reason for existence is eroded.

A very sweeping statement and not one I agree with. But one that supports adding economics, finance/tax (and justice) to the national curriculum?

😉

anagallis: In the example above, the cost (ie paid to the insurer) of insurance is £600.
This £600 is paid by the employer to the insurer.
The tax man sees this as payment…ie a cash value instead of actual wages of £600.
The tax man wants to tax this at the same rate as your income either 22% or 40% depending on income tax level.
He can’t take this tax from the £600 directly, so they mess about with your tax code and claw it back over the year via PAYE income tax…ie out of your pay packet.
So for £600 a higher rate tax payer would pay £240 extra in tax over the year to allow for the benefit of £600 of insurance.

Understand now? 🙂