I don’t have stats to hand, I don’t know if they exist, but given that I’m a non-posh bloke, in the military, I think my instincts on this can be trusted, no?

Why should I trust you at all? I don’t know you from Adam mate. So, you can’t actually prove what you claim? Thought not.

Whereas you’re not in the military, so you’re trading on the equivalent of what some bloke in a pub told you years ago

So, you’ve met me, you know all my friends and acquaintances, do you? Thought not.

I don’t know you from Adam mate.

If you don’t know him from Adam, how can you call him “mate”?

Hmm.

surely though… it’s only the middle management places that are meritocrital(?)?

your supervisors.. managers.. maybe even one or two of your area managers.. just for the look of the thing..

looks like a case of closing ranks to me..
get out while you can Elfin.. you’ll never beat the conditioning that this lot have undergone..

A quick bit of googling reveals that the last three Chiefs of the Air Staff (the head honcho) attended the University of Bath, ICL and none! None had been to a school I’d heard of. Eton/Oxbridge conspiracy?

Why should I trust you at all? I don’t know you from Adam mate. So, you can’t actually prove what you claim? Thought not.

I could say the same about you, and everyone else on this forum. There has to be a degree of trust surely? Alternatively, ask a military person you know if my posts are genuine. My comment on your source was based on what you have so far divulged.

If you don’t know him from Adam, how can you call him “mate”?

It’s a term of endearment often directed at strangers …….. it doesn’t signify that the user has “mated” with the receiver.

HTH

If you don’t know him from Adam, how can you call him “mate”?

Sorry, you’re right; he/she’s in the RAF, not the Navy. 🙂

get out while you can Elfin.. you’ll never beat the conditioning that this lot have undergone..

S’ok; I’ve proved me point, so I’m done now. I dare say various individuals will waffle on about something or other, but very few will actually face up to the reality that we simply don’t live in a true meritocracy, as such a concept is a bit too much for them to contemplate.

S’ok; I’ve proved me point, so I’m done now

Well you’ve certainly proved something, but most of us knew it anyway….

Same as teachers

woohooo I’m middle class, when do I get the secrete handsahke thingy and all the money?

Me and Ernie got called ‘Middle Class’ the other day. 😀

I have been scrubbing myself with carbolic soap ever since….

Had a quick read of this, I could spend hours correcting stuff on here, but I will restrict myself to just a few points:

(i) My father joined the army as a private left as a brigadier.
(ii) In my experience, the “old boy network” is more pervasive (certainly in Banking) in the Netherlands, France and Germany.
(iii) the gap between educational attainment of the state and private sectors seems to have widened over recent years, reducing social mobility, and something needs to be done to address this.

Since I made the “old boys network” comment which has brought oh so much joy to this thread 😆 I thought I’d give you the heads up on this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00yb5kv

I expect some here to accuse the BBC of being some lefty organisation next.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

Same as teachers

woohooo I’m middle class, when do I get the secrete handsahke thingy and all the money?

When you learn how to spell ffs 😐

Social mobility is low in the UK as a result of widening inequality as measured by the Gini coefficient and represented in a Lorenz curve. Or simply that the gap between the bottom and the top has become much greater. It started with Thatcher and Labour governments have made little impact on it (remember Mandelson ‘….filthy rich under NL’ etc etc). Education cannot compensate for society and anyway the problem is not so much about mobility but rather inequality. Those that have been socially mobile like that nasty little piece of work Alan Sugar are used to justify inequality with the illusion that it’s down to just rewards for talent and effort whereas most of the rich got there by choosing their parents carefully.

How do you spell ‘ffs’ then, Ernie?

elf there have been numerous AVM in the RAF who have entered as boy entrants as apprentices and quite a sizeable number of offices of air are ex apprentices. Officer appraisals are very direct and quite blunt if somebody isnt upto it they are found out very quickly.

Similary if an airman wants to be commissioned and gets approval from their Boss and CO they apply and if good enough get commissioned.

I knew a guy from a big council estate in Birkenhead who followed the path above,if you are good enough you are in .

The same as being a Pilot they are from a variety of different backgrounds some working class and others very wealthy but one things for sure if you arnt up to the job you are out regardless of who you are.

As for cannonfodder in the Airforce the officers go off to War

the gap between educational attainment of the state and private sectors seems to have widened over recent years

do you have any evidence for this as it would be quite hard to work out

Have to agree with airtragic. There is also some complete rubbish posted above regarding what class/schooling/academic achievements are required to become an Officer in our modern armed forces. As for the “cannonfodder” comments, jesus.

I don’t think that anyone has argued against my point though have they ?

You don’t find Old Etonians in the ranks regardless of how easy it might be for us peasants to become officers.
Social mobility has to move both ways because there isn’t enough room or everyone at the top table.

Happy to be informed that I’m misinformed.

most Etonians parents whould have higher expectations for their children dont you think especialy after spending all that cash?

elf there have been numerous AVM in the RAF

AVM =?

I’m not disputing the fact that there is a degree of meritocracy in the armed forces, I’m merely stating that the majority of top officers are from pivileged backgrounds. As there are such people in most top jobs. Exceptions do not prove the rule. You can’t tell me that the organisation of the armed forces is proportionate and representative of society overall. It’s not. There are of course complex reasons for this, but the overall reason is that a class system exists which divides people and serves as a framework for discrimination. I accept that the armed forces have become more meritocratic than they were in the past.

The same outdated and unequal system exists in business, in Law, in all sorts of areas of public life. Things are changing, but all too slowly. Those who seek to preserve the Status Quo are hindering the natural development of society, to serve their own ends.

most Etonians parents whould have higher expectations for their children dont you think especialy after spending all that cash?

If expectations is all that is required, then why bother wasting all that money sending your son to Eton ?

I suppose you could send them for just a term though ……. just to prove that you expect a lot from them.

Elf

Have a look at this

http://www.raf.mod.uk/organisation/seniorcommanders.cfm

not many old etonians

Ernie

Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?

not many old etonians

Well we don’t know what secondary school any of them went to, as it doesn’t state such information. And the top bloke there is a university graduate, as are others. Other than that it gives no info as to their backgrounds. They could all have been to Eton for all we know.

I’m merely stating that the majority of top officers are from pivileged backgrounds.

Define “priveleged”? It’s been demonstrated that the top ranks of the RAF didn’t go to the famous public schools or Oxbridge. They almost certainly didn’t know each other before they joined up. They’ve mostly got degrees because to be a star ranked officer, you have to be clever, ambitious, confident and articulate. People like that tend to go to uni.

Yes, it certainly helps to have been given a supportive upbringing, in which confidence has been developed and one has been pushed to achieve, whether at home or at school. This is surely not unique to the upper classes though? Also, there surely comes a point when you have to stand on your own feet and stop bleating about how rubbish your school was and how they’re all out to get you.

There are of course complex reasons for this, but the overall reason is that a class system exists which divides people and serves as a framework for discrimination.

Moving away from the military now. The above quote makes the old boy network sound like some kind of conspiracy, rather than a large scale expression of the fact that people in positions of power (regardless of class) are more likely to appoint those they know, or failing that, have some common ground with. Human nature. So the pace of change is slow.

You don’t find Old Etonians in the ranks regardless of how easy it might be for us peasants to become officers.

I suspect that’s due to parental ambition. The only Etonian I’ve ever met was a scholarship boy!

AVM = Air Vice Marshal, 2* officer, Maj Gen equivalent

Elfinsafety – Member
Me and Ernie got called ‘Middle Class’ the other day.
I have been scrubbing myself with carbolic soap ever since….

Such a middle class comment 🙂

Also, there surely comes a point when you have to stand on your own feet and stop bleating about how rubbish your school was and how they’re all out to get you.

And just who said that? All we ask for is a level playing feild.

how many did you read

Air Vice-Marshal B M North OBE MA RAF

Barry Mark North (Baz) was born on 13 September 1959 and educated at Carre’s Grammar School, Sleaford and at Trent Polytechnic, Nottingham, where he gained a Higher National Diploma in Business Studies;

Define “priveleged”? It’s been demonstrated that the top ranks of the RAF didn’t go to the famous public schools or Oxbridge.

Maybe, but they’re not from a Hackney comprehensive, are they? And not likely to be, really, let’s face it.

‘Privileged’ I’d say is coming from a background with sufficient wealth to enable fee-paying education.

Peter Wall, Chief of General Staff, British Army. Educated at public school and Sandhurst.

Nick Parker; CinC Land Forces. Educated at public school and Sandhurst:

I’m sure there’s loads more. I think my point is quite clear. If you can give me an example of a top officer who hasn’t been to public school and University, and/or who has risen from the rank of Private to the top position, then fair enough. But I think it’s fair enough to say that the whole system is weighted pretty heavily in favour of those who enjoy wealth and privilege to begin with.

Name the top serving officers of the British Military who rose up through the ranks from the very bottom. Go on.
Y’know, the Cheif Air Marshalls, the Brigadiers, the Admirals, the Commodores. That lot.

When these guys started their careers circa 25 years ago it may have been the case that only certain people could make it to the top.

Now 1/3 naval officers come from the rating cadre (NCO for any pongo speaking types).

Times are a’changing…

raf

both rose to the very top

Sir Michael Beetham joined as an airman was an LAC (private)
Sir Keith Williamson ex apprentice

Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?

Is that supposed to be a suitable metaphor for serving ( and dying ) in the ranks ?

Fair enough. But both were educated at public or grammar school, so probbly not from the least privileged backgrounds. And don’t you think they are exceptions to the rule, really?

All Army Officers are educated at Sandhurst. It’s the Army Officer training academy!

“Sir Michael Beetham joined as an airman was an LAC (private)”

And he was the Chief during the Falklands War.

Plenty of grammar schoolboys up there too.

Whitgift School is an independent day school educating approximately 1,200 boys aged 10 to 18 in South Croydon, London in a 45-acre (180,000 m2) parkland site.

Gen Wall is an alumnus. OK, it’s probably not a Croydon comp, but hey, it’s close….

Fred, you really are so far up your own arse on this one, that we’re planning on sending in a cave rescue team to try and get you out of there.

Firstly it devalues the soldiers and junior officers who contribute so much in today’s forces, particularly on contemporary operations. You clearly underestimate the complexity and responsibility that we now expect our soldiers to cope with, from eighteen year old Privates handling multi-million weapons systems, to lowly non commissioned officers flying hugely complex Apache helicopters.

Secondly you clearly do not understand the difference between a graduate and a potential officer, the two are often far from synonymous!

Thirdly, you overlook the esprit de corps and can do attitude that leads people to the highest ranks – the reason you so often see people with public school backgrounds in the forces is because frequently their Fathers were in the forces too, and the military paid for their schooling because of the disruptive effect of frequent moves on children’s educations, the CCF system in public schools, and the desire to achieve arrived at through their family example. This is not an example of nepotism or an old boys network any more than an Electrician or plumbers son going on to become one himself.

Finally, you overlook the fact that so many officers have degrees that they obtained through military sponsorship – they often would not have been to university if it was not for the forward looking, progressive outlook taken by the forces.

The officer in charge of sandhurst in 91ish joined the army as a private soldier

so much for the Sandhurst education in the those days

Do you think somebody who can spend 30K+ of taxed income would settle for their child fliping burgers in maccyDs.?

Comments like this prove that the class system is well and truly entrenched in this country.

It may not be a profession which would feature high up on many people’s list of aspirations (largely because of the sneering prejudice and condescension shown by others), but it’s an honest job, and as it involves providing one of life’s basic necessities, a fairly admirable one, I’d say. I’d have more respect for someone who works at Mac Ds to pay their way in life, than the person who looks down on someone else for doing an honest day’s graft.

Thirdly, you overlook the esprit de corps and can do attitude that leads people to the highest ranks – the reason you so often see people with public school backgrounds in the forces is because frequently their Fathers were in the forces too, and the military paid for their schooling because of the disruptive effect of frequent moves on children’s educations, the CCF system in public schools, and the desire to achieve arrived at through their family example.

Good point, forgot to mention that earlier!

Is that supposed to be a suitable metaphor for serving ( and dying ) in the ranks ?

no it wasnt a metaphor for anything

Just trying to say that if a parent invests 30K+ per year in their childs education they wouldnt let their child end up flipping burgers, they would get them into a nice little earner no matter how thick they were ( mind you eton has an entrance exam )

Comments like this prove that the class system is well and truly entrenched in this country.

Every society has it’s mcjobs that people look down on.

Out of interest what is a classless country? Germany? France? Netherlands? Italy? US? Sweden?

Which of those?