So where did this idea come from? After reading lots when looking for a frame it seems that there are those amongst us that think a small frame is more playful/chuckable/fun. I don’t get it. Fast downhill for me equals long and low, all day rides equal long and comfy. So what do these people who state ‘great for mucking about in the woods’ actually do in the woods to have fun? Just wondering really. Personally I’d always go for a longer top tube and wheelbase and a short stem.
I’m 5’7 and after buying a small 16inch Bfe frame I’m now selling it as I much prefer my longer 16inch 456 ss, even if it is heresy in STW, world.

5’7 and a 16″ was too small??

So what do these people who state ‘great for mucking about in the woods’ actually do in the woods to have fun?

Dogging

5’7 and a 16″ was too small??

Exactly, that’s what I don’t get. The established theory is that at 5’7 (long body, short legs) I should be fine on a 16″, but it feels really cramped.

Me neither.Never saw the fun in having your knees hitting the shifters all the time.
That said riding my 4x bike round Llandegla was a bit of a chuckle.

You ever tried to properly bunny hop a bike? Or 360? Or just roll around a bowl with the feeling of the bike underneath you? Or try and double up a root to root gap? That’s what people mean. You might prefer long bikes and they may well be faster in most circumstances but short bikes are fun and that’s why people like me ride a small bike for razzing round local woods.

There’s a reason your BMX has a shorter top tube than your road bike.

You ever tried to properly bunny hop a bike? Or 360? Or just roll around a bowl with the feeling of the bike underneath you? Or try and double up a root to root gap? That’s what people mean. You might prefer long bikes and they may well be faster in most circumstances but short bikes are fun and that’s why people like me ride a small bike for razzing round local woods.

Clearly you win.

Fwiw for the last 2 years I have bee riding a 16inch genesis core 10…im 6.2. Tbh I find it pretty easy to live with..yes the odd time u catch ur knee on bars/shifters etc flippin hurts (pads eliminate this) I find it hard to manual because its pretty short. You look a complete c0ck also when riding it all the time. Can live with that though.

But..overall I would say its fun to ride and I feel I can move around more on it and “flick” it more. I assume thats more down to the weight though.

When ive ridden a bigger bike I feel like a clown on stilts, probably take some getting used to.

I am looking forward to recieving my 18inch 456 though.

I’m 5’7 and after buying a small 16inch Bfe frame I’m now selling it as I much prefer my longer 16inch 456 ss, even if it is heresy in STW, world.

I’m 5’9″ & riding a small BFE. Thought I’d try something small compared to my trail & DH bikes. It’s a pig to climb & I’ve snapped a reverb lever with my baggys (lever under the bars). I was thinking why I had the bike this Sunday, but on some really tight & twisty ST I found myself really chucking the bike around and getting round some stuff quicker & tighter than I thought I’d be able to. I think with the Bfe you’ve really got to work it hard to feel the benefits.

Torihada, yeah I get that. But I still think the cons outweigh the pros. I used to race bmx so I’m no stranger to small frames, but on a mountain bike I will stick with longer tts from now on. It’s not like I’m slow through twisty singletrack on the 456 ss 😉

I can go super fast on my local hill but the run would last 10 seconds and be boring as hell. Therefore we have worked in as many corners as we can. Corners are great. Tight steep drifty corners are the best. Long bikes are shit in tight corners. I had one once. Lovingly labelled ‘the barge’*. Long chainstays suck the life out of any frame. I love the fact that you have to be on the ball to ride a smaller bike. It makes easy trails better. And most trails are easy. No one rides the hard ones we build. I love hopping and manualling stuff. I take the rough line every time. I ride smaller bikes. I’m not fast though. Top half of the pack at best.

*the barge was ducking amazing on Welsh and lakes bridleways and mountain passes paved with rain ruts and head sized rocks but I don’t live there.

for the last 2 years I have bee riding a 16inch genesis core 10…im 6.2.

Rather you than me and I’m only just over 6ft ) but I did have a lot of fun on a size L Chameleon in 97-99 that has basically the same TT, ST and SA as a M Soul. Felt pretty good on jumps and the local DH runs as well as 3-6hr XC rides. Fun bike. But not so good for longer days in the end.

Now I have a really great but very different XC bike that has the same kind of mix of XC ability and fun jumpy feel, it’s better at XC tho. I think what keeps it feeling fun is the combo of stability and a short TT and wheelbase. Long TTs and wheelbases are ok at speed on a susser. But in the woods, shorter is funner. Within reason.

Why do you care? Just run what you brung and if you’re happy on it then…?

I wish I was on the ball,so I could go super fast hopping and manualling the rough line on trails no one rides.
But I’ve only got bikes that fit 😥

This is me (in blue) when i bought my first mtb in 2007. Check out my outdoor riding attire, complete with Caterpillar shoes 😆 I’m 6.4 or 5 and was recommended this 18″ Marin Wildcat trail by the shopkeeper. Did the guy in the shop take advantage of my naivety and sell me a bike that was too small? Looking back i’d say yes, but i rode it happily for four years or so. It was brilliant fun. A bit out of it’s depth on DH stuff (i was too mind you) but was spot on for all day xc stuff. Took it jumping too and with a set u-turn revs wound down it was well up for it. It was playful/chuckable/fun. Especially compared to it’s nearest like-for-like replacement, a 20″ 456ss. The 456 is faster is suppose but it’s got a build for it and i’ve a bit more experience now. I’m not one for top tube lengths, seat post angles and all that but i enjoyed my time on a small frame. I didn’t know any better tbh and it felt huge compared to the bmx i rode prior.

Here’s the same bike being chucked about in a playful, fun way a few months later. Riding attire now mtb specific 😀

*sticks hand up for small bike..

But then i wouldnt actually fit on anything feel comfortable on anything much bigger.
Ride what you like and dont give a cack what you think others think you should be riding. I’ve had plenty of weird looks on mine which are obvious looks of bike envy.

I’d love a bike like that. Looks FUN!!!

hora – Member
5’7 and a 16″ was too small??

for the 1000th time height is only 1 factor in frame size, most bikes the 16″ measurement is the seatpost tube so only 1 measurement which mostly relates to inside leg. Some people have long or short legs (or average) the TT in itself isn’t that useful in isolation as the seat post angle changes that depending on how long your legs are which then kicks on to your arm and torso length ratio. Effective TT length depends on where you put the seat.

edit# more

Most more modern bikes has a low TT for better clearance and a move away from road bikes where some of the classic measurements come from which puts more into the TT/Seat Angle/Length of post

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpIa38E0A10[/video]

I love a nice, fast and long bike. But I also love drops, jumps, berms and hucking my meat etc… All this fun stuff is hampered by having a top tube stroking your gentleman vegetables. There’s lot of frames around now that are both long and low for this reason but before they were available I’ve had bikes that were technically too small for me but were a blast to ride. The Charge Blender being the favourite.

So basically you came on here posted a question which you already know the answer to but disagree with and aren’t going to change your mind?

You like your bikes one shape, others like them different ‘it’s just the way of things…some of us even like both but for different things or moods, it’s certainly nothing to fret over.

“I love the fact that you have to be on the ball to ride a smaller bike”

This

What is the “right” size anyway?

Where are these magic numbers that dictate that if you elbow to wrist is x length and your torso is y length your head tube should be z length?

Screw sizing a MTB the same you would a road bike, they’re complete different things, oranges and apples and all that.

MTB geometry is such a difficult thing to do, you’re balancing seated position, seated handling, standing position, standing handling, rider style, the riding terrain, etc, etc etc.

It just so happens a bike that might not “fit” you in the traditional sense, however may fit may more attributes the rider is after, standing handling and riding style.

It is so narrow minded to only consider seated position on a MTB.

It is also narrow minded to not appreciate people may have different things out of MTBing. I for one find it mind numbingly boring trying to go as fast as i can on a bike that is slow handling and stuck to the ground, may aswell ride down the pavement (though that can be pretty bloody fun on a little bike), so i’ll happily give up stability for ability to move the bike around on and off the ground.

buzz-lightyear – Member
“I love the fact that you have to be on the ball to ride a smaller bike”

This

Yep otherwise you smash your knees

It’s not like I’m slow through twisty singletrack on the 456 ss

Clearly you win 😉

You’ve clearly got your own ideas about this. Horses for courses, innit? But sometimes the fastest bike is the least fun, which is why we don’t all ride XC on hardtail 29er race bikes.

Horses for courses innit.

Exactly, that’s what I don’t get. The established theory is that at 5’7 (long body, short legs) I should be fine on a 16″, but it feels really cramped.

I’m 4″ taller than you and I’m pretty happy on my 16″ BFe.

You pays your money…

I didn’t read your comment prior to my first post super.. 😯

So where did this idea come from? After reading lots when looking for a frame it seems that there are those amongst us that think a small frame is more playful/chuckable/fun. I don’t get it

Come on, it’s pretty **** obvious. Look at this lad, clearly having a shit load of fun

Whereas this guy looks like he’s having no fun at all. What a pillock, clearly takes himself far to seriously, he’s even wearing sunglasses when it’s not sunny!

It’s not like I lose sleep over it chaps, just asking a genuine question. As you say , you pays your money etc. I was really just curious as to what the benefits, perceived or otherwise were to a smaller frame. I don’t get on with it, some do, it’s all good.
Thinking about it, my main issue is feeling over the bars a bit too much on steep stuff, but that’s technique I guess. Obviously I need some practise on the ‘bowls’ too, just need to find some first

As with everything else everyone says about geometry and sizing i’ve concluded it’s all a bag of shit.

Why buy a bike that doesn’t fit?
Geometry on a 17″ jump bike will be totally different to a 17″ xc or dh bike.
Going for a smaller xc frame for instance won’t make it more chuckable

Thinking about it, my main issue is feeling over the bars a bit too much on steep stuff, but that’s technique I guess.

Thats where I prefer to be, much more control over steering then 🙂

For context me and the missus ride the same frame size, I am about 4″ taller and have a shorter stem, both bikes fit well 🙂

Obviously I need some practise on the ‘bowls’ too, just need to find some first

It was just an example. People riding in skateparks don’t do it on barges. Small bikes are fun for mucking around on – Easier to move around underneath you which can make them more of a laugh to ride.

For example – I can bunny hop my DH bike but I have to think about it and use a lot of ‘body English’ to get the front up. I can’t really do it spontaneously and pop off stuff on the trail quite as easily as I can with my shorter, higher hardtail which makes every trail feature a potential kicker / transition / whatever.

What Dean said.

I don’t get on with low bars, short chainstays and long top tubes.

I like a long bike but I don’t like bikes with insane top tube lengths (like Mondraker etc) as I ride with a much more neutral, back upright position than a lot of other riders. I find it helps me change my riding position quicker for when the terrain demands it and I find it reduces fatigue on extended downhill runs. I prefer the length to come from slacker head angles and a longer chainstay.

I also have a ridiculous leg to body ratio which means that whilst my legs can be way to long for a given size, my torso certainly is not. So I guess this is a factor that causes or contributes to my preference.

“chuckable” refers to having a frame that doesn’t have a top tube which bangs on your knees when manoeuvring it.

Could you imagine dirt jumpers and 4x riders using 18″-20″ frames?

This is what I don’t ‘get’ with mountain bikers. Theres a camp thats ‘rigid’ in its ‘the manufacturer says this’. No its a guide.

Shoes- you are either 8 or 10 you aren’t ‘ooo fancy trying a 7 for a change’. Those sort of things are rigid. When it comes to bikes though its a guide and subjective, what works for you.

5,10″ riding a 16″ 456 SS here…

Is that “too small”?

My Previous HT was a 17″ Solid Acer, which I persevered with but was basically awful TBH, a sort of strange “XC-ish” geometry type frame, with an inch less TT and more upright Head and seat angles frankly it was gash for my prefered riding. Despite being a “bigger size” it was actually far more cramped than any other bike I’ve ever owned, I basically bought the wrong tool for the job.

Before that I was actually quite Happy on a trailstar, which probably falls between the two in terms of reach and angles, but I’d say the 456 suits me a little better now…

Ultimately its all a learning exercise, I’m now much more interested in Knowing the TT length/front end reach than the, rather arbitrary, seat tube length. Frame sizing is not as straight forwards as just picking a seat tube length or S/M/L sizing bracket to match your general stature, that’s just a quick reference for flogging BSO’s to numpties IMO…

It’s got a lot more to do with finding a comfortable reach position that accommodates the riders build as well as the various positions they are likely to adopt when riding.
A bikes front end can quite easily be too short or too long for a rider, and the “sweet spot” would seem to me to have a tolerance of maybe +/- 1/2″ at best for most people, you can do a fair amount with bar/stem/seat adjustments but if the frame is “Wrong” you’ll never simply fudge your way round it…

Matching front end reach to your own body’s dimensions and riding style doesn’t seem to have any kind of simple Formula that you can apply, because rider’s and their requirements vary so widely….

As deeply uncool and geeky as it might sound, I would encourage people to track down the published geometry figures for any bikes they ride as well as take measurements of how they set it up, whether its a good or bad ride, Simply in order to try and understand what works best for you.

I’m finding that Earthed vid remarkably motivating! Where’s it filmed!?

For the record, whenever i means i’ll be off to the pumptrack or some built trail, my little bike (Short NS Surge) is coming out this weekend!

I have a 14″ full sus bike and a 16″ hardtail. They’re both a bit too small for me if you care about pedalling efficiency and stuff, but they’re so much fun that it doesn’t matter.