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  • penknife law
  • porter_jamie
    Full Member

    im sorry if this has been done many times already – is there an information portal somewhere which has definitive decription of what is and what is not legal?

    my understanding is i can carry a 3″ penknife in my pocket, but not a 3″ lock knife.

    i don’t like using non lock knifes because i’m a clumsy oaf – if you made a penknife which could be locked with the addition of a ‘key’ which could be carried separately, would this be legal?

    for example you could carry the key in the bottom of your camelbak so if out on a mountain somewhere and need to use your knife you can safely lock it, but if you nipped into town to have some cake afterwards you will still be ok.

    silly idea?

    jimjam
    Free Member

    i don’t like using non lock knifes because i’m a clumsy oaf – if you made a penknife which could be locked with the addition of a ‘key’ which could be carried separately, would this be legal?

    My understanding would be no, it would not be legal.

    for example you could carry the key in the bottom of your camelbak so if out on a mountain somewhere and need to use your knife you can safely lock it, but if you nipped into town to have some cake afterwards you will still be ok.

    silly idea?

    Yes, very much over complicating things imo. Firstly I think you should be okay in the mountains with something that’s outside the letter of the law provided you have a reason to carry it. Secondly, take a look at something like the Boker Plus XS or Spyderco UK PK. UK legal, non locking but has a very strong detente and deep choil allowing you to use it safely.

    porter_jamie
    Full Member

    i was assuming so to be honest. i have read up some of the gun laws in the states and some of the silly get arounds – you need a tool to be able to remove a magazine clip in california. someone makes a release button which needs a bullet to press it (ie you cant use your finger) and it has been tested in court and a bullet is a tool. so makes no difference then. i dont think there is such a well funded penknife lobby in the uk….

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Dunno exactly, and I doubt your average plod would either. It’d be down to their discretion.

    The lock knife legislation exists because what’s actually banned is “fixed blade” knives (like Bowie knives for instance). There was later a test case where it was questioned as to whether a folding lock knife can be classed as a fixed blade and the conclusion was ‘yes,’ setting the precedent.

    So I guess what could happen, hypothetically, is that if you were caught with it without good cause to be carrying it and the officer managed to identify that it could be converted into a locking knife, you could end up in the middle of another test case. And would probably lose.

    You’re quite right though, and basically the law’s an ass here. A lock knife is far safer to use, and there’s a world of difference between a teenage lad having one in his back pocket and a middle-aged(?) bloke having one in the bottom of his rucksack having just come off the side of the mountain. Theoretically that should qualify as ‘reason to carry’ in itself, but again it’s down to police discretion.

    Day to day I’ve retired my Opinel to a drawer and just carry a SAK these days as I just don’t want to risk the bother of having to explain myself, though I’d happily “go for cake” carrying the Opinel if it was on my back under a tent. I’d hope, somewhat optimistically perhaps, that common sense would be applied.

    jimjam
    Free Member

    I think the relevant parts of the law are “in public” and “without good reason”. It wouldn’t be unusual to carry a decent knife if you were out on a boat fishing, or a decent size knife or axe if you were going camping for a few days. Totally justifiable, totally legal. Start waving an axe around in Tescos though and it’s a different story.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Aye, that’s kinda what I was trying to say, only badly. (-:

    monkeysfeet
    Free Member

    This has some good info about knives…

    https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

    Unless you are going around threatening folk you should be reet..

    wysiwyg
    Free Member

    When I was at Uni a girl used to get on the bus and walk through the city twice a week with a bill hook strapped to her bag. No one batted an eyelid

    porter_jamie
    Full Member

    jimjam i agree with your sentiment, however

    “should be ok” and ” I’d hope, somewhat optimistically perhaps, that common sense would be applied.” when all i am trying to do it the right thing seems a bit unfair.

    i usually carry a multitool with a locking blade and pliers in case the dog gets tangled in a barbed wire fence. it just seems a bit off that if a copper decided he didn’t like the look of me, i could potentially serve time for it.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    I’d love for anyone to find a single case anywhere in the UK that someone in a ‘outdoorsy’ scenario was accused of carrying a knife illegally because of a penknife in their possession. The law is full of odditities, but fortunately we allow bobbies to utilise their discretion, thankfully. I’d be amazed if this was even an issue. But law abiding worriers will worry, so fair enough asking the question.

    Edit; it’s all about the ‘good reason’ get out clause, innit.

    gonefishin
    Free Member

    or a decent size knife or axe if you were going camping for a few days

    Never once have I felt the need to carry an axe whilst camping and never once have I felt that I needed one. For one thing it is far too heavy to be lugging around.

    Edit:

    it just seems a bit off that if a copper decided he didn’t like the look of me, i could potentially serve time for it.

    That would need to be copper, CPS, Judge and possibly jury too before you serve time!

    DrP
    Full Member

    On a similar but different note…
    I seem to have a terrible habit of having penknives on my person when I forget they are there. Like when I had my small locking knife on my keyring when going into the houses of parliament…
    Brown pant moment, but they were happy for me to simply leave it with security and pick up after.

    DrP – white middle class renegade…

    jimjam
    Free Member

    porter_jamie – Member

    jimjam i agree with your sentiment, however

    “should be ok” and ” I’d hope, somewhat optimistically perhaps, that common sense would be applied.” when all i am trying to do it the right thing seems a bit unfair.

    Yes, I totally agree. I usually carry a small gerber multi tool with a sub 3 inch locking blade, I always take it with me on the bike. I’d rather take my chances and carry it and argue the need for it, than not have it.

    If you’re in doubt there are several UK legal folding pocket knives as I mentioned in my first post and they are designed not to snap back on you while working. However, if you’re standing outside your ex wife’s house at 2am on a rainy night, stinking of booze and found to be in possession of one, even if it complies with the law, expect to be in trouble. You could however say the same for a sharpened stick or a brick.

    gonefishin – Member

    or a decent size knife or axe if you were going camping for a few days

    Never once have I felt the need to carry an axe whilst camping and never once have I felt that I needed one. For one thing it is far too heavy to be lugging around.

    I was thinking of something like a small forest axe, 1lb head, 13″ handle. I should have written hatchet for fear of pedants. Either way the intention would be the same, gathering and splitting firewood.

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    OP, you will not get lifted for having a Leatherman or similar in your bag when you are mountain biking. That’s the bottom line.

    Notwithstanding that, it would of course not be the police’s but the court’s decision as to whether you get convicted and went to jail, which you wouldn’t, but in any case you wouldn’t be there in the first place.

    (And if someone digs out the story about the bloke who got lifted by the police for having a fruit paring knife in his glove box for his caravan trips when they stopped him to breathalyse him, remember that he had just come from a pub where he had been threatening to stab people 🙂 )

    gonefishin
    Free Member

    I was thinking of something like a small forest axe, 1lb head, 13″ handle. I should have written hatchet for fear of pedants.

    Axe/Hatchet the same point applies and is nothing to do with pedantry, it’s still far too heavy to be lugging around. The only axe I’d even consider in the UK would be an Ice Axe except I’m too much of a wuss to camp in winter.

    johnhe
    Full Member

    I’d use a Leatherman of Gerber. Much easier to justify in the miniscule chance of being challenged on it.

    I’m still smarting over losing a small Victorinox knife at an airport. I bought it during the only time I’ve ever been in Pokra in Nepal – I still can’t believe that I forgot I had it in my pack. The blade must have been all of 30mm long.

    jimjam
    Free Member

    gonefishin

    Axe/Hatchet the same point applies and is nothing to do with pedantry, it’s still far too heavy to be lugging around. The only axe I’d even consider in the UK would be an Ice Axe except I’m too much of a wuss to camp in winter.

    Oh ok, that’s fine. I can see you’re not being pedantic, you simply can’t imagine carrying anything additional that might add 500g or 1kg to your gear, no worries each to their own. I like hatchets and find them much better for gathering wood, nicer to use than a knife and just nice to have about for whittling and messing. I also mentioned it to give another possible scenario for having a large bladed tool, other than fishing.

    I could have mentioned a carpenter carrying a saw from his van to the site or plenty of other hypotheticals.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    When I was at Uni a girl used to get on the bus and walk through the city twice a week with a bill hook strapped to her bag. No one batted an eyelid

    I regularly walk through Maryhill with a billhook, a scythe, or a slasher. Going to work in the local park you see, officer 😉

    aphex_2k
    Free Member

    You can still be done for carrying a <3″ length blade if you cannot justify it being on your person with an acceptable reason.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    I have a small Gerber lock knife that goes on my keys. It’s bang on 3″. My main reason is that there are so many dickheads around these parts with ‘hard’ dogs that, as the father of two young girls, if one of these dogs ever went for them, as does happen in the UK from time to time, I’m able to deal with the situation. I guess if I lived somewhere like Surrey I’d have less need.

    jimjam
    Free Member

    loddrik

    I have a small Gerber lock knife that goes on my keys. It’s bang on 3″. My main reason is that there are so many dickheads around these parts with ‘hard’ dogs that, as the father of two young girls, if one of these dogs ever went for them, as does happen in the UK from time to time, I’m able to deal with the situation. I guess if I lived somewhere like Surrey I’d have less need.

    Apparently, self defense is not an acceptable reason to carry a knife of any description. Or anything of any description apparently (except a dog). I’m not sure if prying a dogs jaws off your child is actually “self defense” though so that probably comes down to the discretion of the individual police officer again.

    I can understand why the law is there, but it’s only the law abiding people who give a toss.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Sadly, I doubt that “it’s for stabbing dogs” would win you any favour in the “with good reason” stakes.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    I’ll take the chance. Better that than have one of my girls maimed.

    It’s highly unlikely the situation would ever present itself but you just never know.

    bencooper
    Free Member

    I am also the father of a young girl. I usually have a knife of some sort in my pocket. the idea of trying to use that relatively small knife on a dog seems ridiculous – much better to try kicking, punching, prying the dog’s jaws.

    v8ninety
    Full Member

    nipped into town to have some cake afterwards you will still be ok.

    Of course it’ll be fine, because cutting cake is an

    acceptable reason

    to carry a multipurpose knife.
    (Tongue firmly in cheek obviously, but actually, cutting food is surely an acceptable reason to carry a <3″ blade?)

    loddrik
    Free Member

    I don’t really want to turn the thread into a ‘how to kill an aggressive dog thread’ but your average pitbull type dog isn’t going to let go by kicking it and there isn’t much chance of prying it’s jaws off, stabbing the shit out of its throat however will have the desired effect. But as I said, it’s highly unlikely it’d ever happen, but the safety of my girls comes above all else.

    sands
    Free Member

    porter_jamie – Member
    is there an information portal somewhere which has definitive description of what is and what is not legal?

    This covers England Wales NI
    Criminal Justice Act 1988 – Section 139

    139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place

    The key points:

    (2)Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

    (3)This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

    (4)It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

    Cougar – Moderator
    There was later a test case where it was questioned as to whether a folding lock knife can be classed as a fixed blade and the conclusion was ‘yes,’ setting the precedent.

    I believe it was this:
    HARRIS v DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS; FEHMI v SAME
    Both were lock-knives with blades less than three inches; however, they were being carried in urban areas:
    Harris – Prebend Street, Islington (1990)
    Fehmi – Bethnal Green Road, London, E2 (1990)

    The key points:

    “In my judgment, the right approach to the matter is this. To be a folding pocketknife the knife has to be readily and indeed immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A knife of the type with which these appeals are concerned is not in this category because, in the first place, there is a stage, namely, when it has been opened, when it is not immediately foldable simply by the folding process and, secondly, it requires that further process, namely, the pressing of the button.”

    “When the knife is locked it becomes in effect a fixed blade knife and the intention of the statute is to prevent the carrying of such a knife.”

    Therefore, if it’s anything other than sub 3” non-locking, your defence is your ‘good reason’ for having it in a public place.
    IANAL

    Scapegoat
    Full Member

    The law simply states that it is an offence to have with you in a public place any blade or sharply pointed implement without good reason (the onus of which is on the person having it with them to prove) except for a folding pocket knife with a blade the cutting edge of which does not exceed 7.62cm (3 inches)

    A stated case found that a blade which required any form of secondary action to fold (switch, lever, liner lock etc) was not a folding blade in the spirit of the intended legislation, and so any lock knives were NOT exempt.

    Break the above down, and it means that you can have with a you a sub 3 inch bladed penkife as long as it folds with a single action, and you do not have to justify having it with you.

    The legislation doesn’t relate solely to knives. Any blade or sharply pointed instrument includes craft knives, box cutters, darts, school compass sets, chefs knives, bill hooks, machetes, samurai swords etc. What’s more, it doesn’t make it illegal to have these with you in public, it just means that you have to reasonably justify having them with you.

    So. A carpet fitter can have a stanley knife in his pocket whilst travelling to or from work. Eric Bristow can have his darts in his top pocket whilst on his way to the pub to play a match. Little Johnny can wend his way to his maths tutor and back again without fear of prosecution. The legislation is designed to prevent those otherwise innocuous darts being taken to the Kop, and the carpet fitter can’t take the stanley knife with him to Grab A Granny night at the Accapulco.

    As far as fixed blade knives, lock knives and locking bladed multitools are concerned, remember to take them out of your pack when you no longer need them. If you can justify using a lock knife in your pastimes and hobbies, then fair enough. We all know they are safer to use in a proper application than a flimsy folder. I carry a small locking single-handed opener when I go rabitting, and a 5 inch fixed blade skinner when I go stalking. My son carries similar items when he goes shooting, but it has been drilled into him time and again that he removes them religiously from his belt or pockets as soon as he gets home.

    Plod does know the legislation @cougar, and it is very much topical. The assumption is to charge rather than caution for any knife offences, and in the case of Youth Offending it takes a high ranking officer to override the assumption to prosecute rather than offer Youth Cautions, with only exceptional circumstances cited as reasons to give them a second chance.

    Scapegoat
    Full Member

    Crossed in the post with he above.

    cbmotorsport
    Free Member

    I have a small Gerber lock knife that goes on my keys. It’s bang on 3″. My main reason is that there are so many dickheads around these parts with ‘hard’ dogs that, as the father of two young girls, if one of these dogs ever went for them, as does happen in the UK from time to time, I’m able to deal with the situation. I guess if I lived somewhere like Surrey I’d have less need.

    Really?? I’d wager that the last thing you’d do if your kid was being mauled by a dog is stop, rummage in your pockets for your keys, pull out the blade and start slashing at the dog…! But you may be more cool, calm and collected than me.

    This is a really bad reason to carry a knife of any size.

    D0NK
    Full Member

    (can’t remember if I asked this before) Folding (lockable) saw on my commute? Lots of windfall in the parks at the moment so presumably justifiable there but if (highly unlikely admittedly) I get pulled over it’s not going to be in the country parks it’ll be near the start or end cutting through the town/city centre, can I justify my way out of that?
    having a freshly muddy bike should help, dunno tho
    (I don’t routinely carry it but have taken it when I’ve had to scramble over/around windfall the previous day)

    cbmotorsport
    Free Member

    …stabbing the shit out of its throat however will have the desired effect.

    This is a troll right?

    bencooper
    Free Member

    A pitbull-type dog attacked our cat years ago – I really wouldn’t have had time to get a knife out and try for surgical throat-cutting. Kneeling on it and punching it hard in the head several times did the trick.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    Each to their own. Everyone can deal with a situation in their own way. I’ll be taking no chances. But it’ll almost certainly never happen so it’s mostly hypothetical.

    loddrik
    Free Member

    But you may be more cool, calm and collected than me.

    Ya got that right!

    thegreatape
    Free Member

    You can still be done for carrying a <3″ length blade if you cannot justify it being on your person with an acceptable reason.

    How’s that then? (Assuming you are talking about a non-locking folding pocket knife).

    Cougar
    Full Member

    From that gov.uk link,

    Lock knives (knives with blades that can be locked when unfolded) are not folding knives, and are illegal to carry in public without good reason.

    The OP’s idea would fall into a blade that can be locked, so assuming the site wording to be sound it’d be illegal.

    Plod does know the legislation @cougar, and it is very much topical.

    Point was, the police aren’t lawyers or judges. I’d expect them to have a working knowledge of the law of course, but not necessarily be equipped to deal accurately with grey areas. Eg, before the ‘lock knife’ test case, would your average beat cop have decided a three-inch lock knife was legal or not?

    And besides, people can make mistakes. I’ve seen people wrongfully being told by police that they can’t take photos at public events, as a random example. As you say though, I’d expect “hot topics” to be a bit more watertight in their heads.

    Scapegoat
    Full Member

    Both stated cases were 1990. Section 139 of the 1988 act went live in late 1989. Not much of a time lag in legal history terms.

    What grey areas still exist? Once the lock-knife question has been answered for them, a section which says you can’t have a blade or pointed implement in your possession unless it’s a small folding pocket knife isn’t that hard to think through.

    Stabbibng pitbulls aside, it isn’t that hard for your average knife user to think of a reasonable excuse either.

    Tiger6791
    Full Member

    This makes my Opinel 7 very illegal.

    richmtb
    Full Member

    This makes my Opinel 7 very illegal illegal to carry in a public place without good reason

    Knives are tools, if you have a reason for carrying the tool then you aren’t breaking the law. If I wandered through a shopping centre swinging a claw hammer I’d imagine it might land me in a spot of bother even though there is no specific legislation restricting hammers.

    I’ve never worried about having an “illegal” blade on my Leatherman or similar. The purpose of the legislation is not to stop people out biking or enjoying the great outdoors carrying multi tools its to stop people taking knives into town and city centres.

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