After several years on clipless I thought I'd give flats a go using skate shoes.Took me a while to to relearn how to pedal,jump and bunny hop but now I wouldn't go back to clipless off road.Esp. since I changed to am40 shoes.(Evan more grip.)Still use clipless on my road bike though.......
Bike Forum
Pedals - clipless vs flats
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Posted 1 year ago #
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I have been on flats since last Summer. (I blamed a hefty gouge in the leg on SPDs due to still being stuck to the bike in a hapless OTB incident as well as many topples etc etc)
I have read with interest the foot position comments so I have been riding with the foot much more central (practicing on the way to work too) What I have found is that dropping your heel has a MUCH greater effect when your foot is here and you can really fell the bike "pushing back"
This is important for me as the biggest difference I found between the 2 was going over terrain where the ground falls away - like into bombholes etc
Posted 1 year ago # -
I wouldn't expect you to remotely understand anything I wrote up there dipsh*t. If you don't have anything constructive to say keep it shut.
Jimjam you are seriously retarded, I thought even someone with a brain as small as yours could understand;
"In Brian Lopes book mastering mountain bike skills there is a diagram explaining what I said"
I wouldn't want to miss the opportunity to say that you're a prick, and a gormless one. As per my original post, you've just pulled completely arbitrary "stats" out of your ass. All you've got to back up your pretty ridiculous made up statistic is a diagram in a book written by two mountainbikers. Not doctors, or physios, two bikers. The main author Lee McCormack is selling mtb fitness training programes on his site that he asked James Wilson to create for him. A person who, according to you
really doesn't have a clue what he is going on about
I had a look online and the page, no, paragraph that you are referencing doesn't mention anything, nothing, about quantifying efficiency gains with spds. All it does is explain the mechanics of a good pedal stroke for the hard of thinking.
So, again, do you have any reputable evidence to back up your "40% increase in efficiency" statistic that you made up, other than a book written by a couple of mountainbikers, which doesn't even remotely suggest what you are claiming?
Obviously you don't have the book, or any skills.
You're right, I don't have the book. I've never felt the need to buy a book to teach me how to ride a bike. Maybe because I ride flats.
The o.p is new to the sport, he would benefit from balanced informed opinion, not more lies and half truths propagated by internet riding legends like you.
Posted 1 year ago # -
With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling.
I don't have the stats but I would say SPD's are roughly 40% more efficient than flats given the muscle groups utilised.
You can't pull up because your foot is not attached to the pedal, therefore you can only push on the pedals. The muscle that does pretty much all the pushing is your quad and some calf.
Flow - I'm tempted to agree with JimJam's opinion of you here, not sure whether you're actually "a prick" or "gormless" but you've definitely been talking utter shite (all of the above ^^)
Surely I'm not the only one here who can pedal one footed on flats? I'm not into biking competitively anymore or even for fitness so I don't really care which muscles I'm working but it's not as simple as pushing down from the 1 O'clock position to the 6 O'clock position as you've tried to explain it.
.Posted 1 year ago # -
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Posted 1 year ago # -
Maybe you should shut your stupid mouth. How on earth you can justify the 40% more powerful I don't know. I have read several articles about it and its clear its actually very hard to quantify any increase in power tho must of us believe there is some
FWIW GW can walk the walk as well as talk the talk
Posted 1 year ago # -
I said roughly 40% . Looking on the net its more like 30%, sh*it I was 10% out!
[another post edited. Mod]
Posted 1 year ago # -
Evidence? I believe its only a few % thats what is normally found- and less of the swearing you clown. Read the rules,
Posted 1 year ago # -
[yet another post edited. Mod]
Posted 1 year ago # -
Oh I have - I have looked into it before. a few % is what I remember as a quantified difference
I somehow think you won't be staying on the forum long. Rules is rules
Byeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Posted 1 year ago # -
With spd's, if you clip one foot in (for arguments sake), you can pedal in a circle using all of your available leg muscles, glutes, calves, hamstrings and quads because you are both pushing and pulling
IIRC there's a bigger difference between shoes than between pedal types.
You lose aproximately 15% of the power through a flat pedal Vs SPD, and another 15% in the shoe itself, use a stiff soled shoe and you get back that 15%.*
You can't pull up on the pedal while sat down, you can do the maths, if you pulled as much as you push (or even the 40% figure you staed probably) the ligaments in your knee and hip would snap. Look at your quads, claves and hamstrings, these do most of the work in cycling, they're big, prety much the biggest muscles in your body. Look at the muscles in your leg that pull, the tibialis anterior and hip flexor, they're tiny in comparison, the truth is your leg is just about capable of lifting its own weight, cycling at 80-90rpm it doesnt even manage that! Even riders who believed they were pedaling perfect circles (and had a very smooth power output) were actualy still puching down on the up-stroke!
The difference is when stood up for a sprint the clipless rider will have more power, sat down and spinning and there's so little in it you'd be supprised.
*looking at it the other way round, using clips is worth 15% and the shoes are worth 15%, the TDF speeded up the year SPD's came in to replace toe straps by something like 5% as suddenly shoes had to be much better made to with stand the greater force transfered as they were more efficient (no sole as such anymore, just a cleat and a plastic shoe).
Posted 1 year ago # -
Flow - It seems Jimjam had you sussed afterall
FWIW. I've been reading Lee's site fairly often for many years and have seen/read his book a few years back. the book is good, you are clearly not capable of comprehending most of it tho you clueless balloon .
Posted 1 year ago # -
82.5% of statistics are made up on the spot
Posted 1 year ago # -
you are all a bunch of dumb ****
Posted 1 year ago # -
[post edited. Mod]
Posted 1 year ago # -
I was doing a bit of one legged pedalling on flats the other day. (Lost a pedal doing a hike-a-bike*)
It would have been useful to have toestraps (you can keep your spds), but I was still able to pedal ok on one crank. With the right technique you can get quite a lot of up pull with flat pedals. There's only a small arc with no thrust.
Oops! no pedal.*In case anyone wants to look - it's somewhere in the heather on north side of Ben Wyvis.
(And don't use Quick Detach pedals if you're bush bashing.
)
Posted 1 year ago # -
I thorougly enjoy reading the arguments about flats versus SPDs!
I'm surprised that people put so much emphasis on efficiency as I don't ride mountain bike to be efficient, just to enjoy myself! People should just ride with pedals that they like and get on with and not worry about 15% here and there unless they are trying to win races etc.
My only contribution to the discussion would be that when people use SPDs on my skills courses you have to add at least 30 minutes to the day as the extra run up lenghts, aborted attempts at stuff as they haven't managed to clip in in time and failed attempts at starting on technical climbs etc, all adds to the time it takes to practise the various skills I teach. (However the toppling over sideways incidents do seem to cause a few laughs!)
I love the clicky noise of clipping in shoes into SPDs but it doesn't outweigh the flexibility and simplicity of flat pedals, instead I just put in 15% more effort and still keep up with the people I ride with.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Using clipless for extra power is just cheating in my book! Reckon the boys in the Giro would've descended much quicker on the gravel today if they had flats and fatter tyres on!
Posted 1 year ago # -
It certainly is curious, the way some people seem to get a bit emotional about other people's pedals. I'm not sure why some flat pedal riders are so defensive. Or some clip riders come to that.
Clearly the pedalling bit is more efficient - I think that is evident from seeing what racers use. As to the degree of difference - well that harldy matters, since most people are riding for fun. One small factor is just plain efficiency over a long period - if I can do something to make me a fraction fresher after four or five hours, then that's pretty appealing to me.
From my experience there is a bit of a distraction factor when learning mtb-ing with clips. But (important this) there is also just as bad a distraction if there is an increased temptation to put your foot down. These two at least cancel each other out.
So it comes down to what you prefer - either is fun - neither is a disadvantage over-all.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Using clipless for extra power is just cheating in my book! Reckon the boys in the Giro would've descended much quicker on the gravel today if they had flats and fatter tyres on!
Possibly. But they would have been way slower over the whole stage! Same with mountain biking - the majority of the time you're just pedalling along. Even if the downs are compromised (even that can be debated) the ride over-all can be faster with clips.Posted 1 year ago # -
Oh - one last thing (!). It is pretty irrelevant if Brian Lopes is a dick - without doubt he can ride, and knows the reasons.
Posted 1 year ago # -
If you are not sure which you prefer then ride with one foot clipped in and the other on a flat to help choose. If you then start going round in circles you will know which is more efficient but not perhaps which is more fun.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I can take or leave the SPDs on my XC bike, but I really like them on the DH bike, no danger of a foot bouncing off in the rough stuff and it keeps you in contact with the bikeso you can land shoddy airs. when it comes to tricky corners, well it's do or die, (which is 110% faster 50% of the time)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Just me but I use Easton Fatboy flats with skatey type trainers for messing about. I swap regularly to egg beaters & Pearl Izumis when out for a power type training ride, to strengthen my legs, increase stamina etc.
I love both types of pedal but both are very different to me. I understand everyone about clips on DH/rough stuff & staying attached is good. Generally though, I simply do not trust myself enough (limited skill) to go flat out in clips (DH).
Clips for building strength for me/flats for fun.
everyone rides different though & understand (or not) their own skill levels. Just ride to have fun in the end. Peace out...
Posted 1 year ago # -
No_discerning_taste - Member
I'm surprised that people put so much emphasis on efficiency as I don't ride mountain bike to be efficient, just to enjoy myself! People should just ride with pedals that they like and get on with and not worry about 15% here and there unless they are trying to win races etc.
I'd expect any decent skills coach to understand that a rider would enjoy themselves more by pedalling efficiently, whether on flats or SPDs. Wouldn't this be one of the basics that you teach? Or do you think that bunnyhops are more important than pedalling without making the suspension bob?
Pedalling efficiently means that you'll climb smoother and faster, and crucially with less effort, so you'll have more energy for the forthcoming technical section. Basics!
No_discerning_taste - Member
My only contribution to the discussion would be that when people use SPDs on my skills courses you have to add at least 30 minutes to the day as the extra run up lenghts, aborted attempts at stuff as they haven't managed to clip in in time and failed attempts at starting on technical climbs etc, all adds to the time it takes to practise the various skills I teach. (However the toppling over sideways incidents do seem to cause a few laughs!)
So your only contribution to the argument is a poor advertisement for your skills coaching?
You have riders with SPDs taking drastically longer to ride things, but you aren't able to help them? You need to add 30 minutes to a days coaching? As I said, not a good ad.
FWIW, all the experienced riders I know who use SPDs can clip into them in one movement after lifting their foot off the ground. No faffing around with extra run ups, or attempting to clip in when riding the obstacle.
BTW, your website looks good, lovely location etc, but ill judged comments really would make me think twice about using your skills courses.
Posted 1 year ago # -
As myself and others have said pedalling efficiency isn't really of interest to many riders, in fact I think unless you are into your training/racing etc it isn't something anyone would think about. If I booked an mtb skills course I wouldn't want to be paying to be told how to pedal!
Posted 1 year ago # -
FWIW, all the experienced riders I know who use SPDs can clip into them in one movement after lifting their foot off the ground.
I'd consider myself a fairly experienced rider and having ridden SPDs for 15+ years (although only ever on the road now) I'll freely admit I simply can't clip back in easily at all, in 5 years or so of riding/racing XC and a further couple DH and using SPDs almost exclusively I was never happy with my inability to clip back quickly and smoothly (I even set about practicing it a lot) and don't think I'd ever be able to get it anywhere near a fast, smooth, natural action I could do time and time again without having to think about my feet. where as I never consciously think about my foot position on flats whatever I'm riding. Since gaining a foot injury a few years back I'll probably never go back to SPDs off road again anywayPosted 1 year ago # -
No_discerning_taste - Member
I'm surprised that people put so much emphasis on efficiency as I don't ride mountain bike to be efficient, just to enjoy myself! People should just ride with pedals that they like and get on with and not worry about 15% here and there unless they are trying to win races etc.
IdleJon - Member
I'd expect any decent skills coach to understand that a rider would enjoy themselves more by pedalling efficiently, whether on flats or SPDs. Wouldn't this be one of the basics that you teach? Or do you think that bunnyhops are more important than pedalling without making the suspension bob?Pedalling efficiently means that you'll climb smoother and faster, and crucially with less effort, so you'll have more energy for the forthcoming technical section. Basics!
For what little extra efficiency SPD's provide, (ie: a teeny weeny bit of upstroke right at the back end of a pedal stroke, as well debated on another forum in the past) then the member you have quoted may have a point considering it is entirely possible to learn good pedal technique using flat with decent pins + good sticky stiff soled shoes.
You may equate 'optimum pedal power and efficiency' with enjoyment but when I see many people that have bought into the marketing hype like you have, having their 'SPD moments' at say a trail centre where there are no race prizes at the end, one has to smile to oneself and wonder just how much enjoyment the person in front of me( that I'm catching up b.t.w) got from that fall they just had on some steep and loose terrain, they couldn't get their feet out in time but with flats it would have been a foot dab moment rather than a face plant moment.
For me it;s about a pootle and not a race, and as much as this will annoy those that sneer down their noses at flat users, I do note that there are not too many people passing me at this place where I go, only elite racing types and such like, but people even younger than me and slimmer than me, are certainly NOT burning past, in fact it's the other way round, I DO NOT have an ego about this, NOR do I give a monkey's chuff about who I can and can't beat, I'm simply reporting the fact as I see it.
So naturally, I wonder what all the fuss and HYPE is about with all this 'you need Spd's or you're nothing' lark.
Utter nonsense it is.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Where is this 30% of wasted energy going? do the flexy shoes and pedals heat up?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I use SPds - No racer am I but I do prefer the extra efficiency - 'cos it means I can further / for longer than I would on flats. Its only marginal tho. I usually ride 30+ miles at a time - sometimes up to 60.
Posted 1 year ago # -
So naturally, I wonder what all the fuss and HYPE is about with all this 'you need Spd's or you're nothing' lark.
That's funny. Where does anyone say that?Posted 1 year ago # -
I've found clipless for road and flats for MTB work best. Too many hopeless toppling over incidents with clipless off road!
Posted 1 year ago # -
Or do you think that bunnyhops are more important than pedalling without making the suspension bob?The question is flats or spds, what has this got to do with suspension bob?
You have riders with SPDs taking drastically longer to ride things, but you aren't able to help them? You need to add 30 minutes to a days coaching? As I said, not a good ad.
Someone needs a reading comprehension course!
FWIW, all the experienced riders I know who use SPDs can clip into them in one movement after lifting their foot off the ground. No faffing around with extra run ups, or attempting to clip in when riding the obstacle.
Thats nice. Perhaps you might imagine that the people on skills courses are slightly less adept at instantly clipping in?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Pedals - clipless vs flats
Oki doki.I started riding bmx on flats in the early eighties as a young teen, you learned bunny hopes and all that shizzle. Following that I got into Road racing with clips and straps on a cleeted shoe and it felt great the tighter the strap was the better it felt especially for really really steep climbs where you would be pulling up on the back stroke as much as you would be pushing down on the down stroke.
Then there was the dawn of mountain biking from which I have basically progressed with the development of the mountain bike.
The first decent mountain bike came with clips and straps and then spd's were developed, I wanted them bad. Got the spds and went to a field of soft grass as instructed by a copy of Mountain bike International and practiced un clipping and stuff, I then went on to ride clipped in for about 10 years but and I mean but, I always owned a pair of flats. If I ever wanted to put my trainers on and go for a razz round town or practice wheelies and various other techniques I'd be on flats.
We were doing All mountain when it was just called mountain biking i.e. riding up hill to get to ride hell for leather down the other side, this was all clipped into spds, we were fast n'all.
Progression continued and we are at about 1995 and we've been going down the bmx track on our MTB's wearing spds, no problems.
I'd by this time raced a few xc races and found on any of the downhill's I'd start gaining places and whipping most of the field. Downhill was growing within me and within the u.k.
1996 my first downhill event "Quad descender" rivington pike Lancashire, snow on the top, four at a time bar banging race to the bottom (coincidentally it was the first ever outing of an orange full sus bike ever! looked more like a schwin home grown than the oranges we know today) I used spd's, everyone was at that race and guess who won.... Steve Peat.
During this year on a detour off-road on may ride back from work I thought I'd wheelie down the bank I'd usually jump off, as I did it I looped out one foot released the other didn't. Result torn Knee ligaments, very very painful, the pedals were Onza titanium elastomer spd's. I healed and carried on regardless
I then moved to California taking my bike with me at the time I was riding a Kona Kula with a pair of Azonic riser bars which at the time was a big nod to my aggressive tendencies on a bike, the yanks had not really seen mtb's set up like this but this was the way of the Brits, the world soon followed suit.
While in the states for 2 years I switched between flats and spds and upgraded my spds to the new Red shimano DX spds (the first spds with a support cage). During my time in the states I seemed to be progressing more and more towards Dirt Jumping but in spd's until the day I over shot a landing and snapped my collar bone clean in 2. From that day I have worn flats. Reason being I believe not coming away from the bike on landing caused me to break myself.
Fast forward the next ten years on flats with not a sniff of spds I have gone from dirt jumper to freerider to downhill racers my main ride is an Orange 224 blinged with saint and hope and superstar flats. My Shins are scared to oblivion (to answer the question about calves, yes you get caught on your calf and you hardly ever notice until you get home but if your pushing it you will whack your shin, if you have never whacked your shin your not trying hard enough, 5:10's are awesome I have 3 pairs, but you will still whack your shin if your pushing it)
Changes are a foot (excuse the pun),
I have just built an "all mountain Bike" I have retired my Orange Msile and bought a Kona Dawg frame set put on some pikes and a pair of SHIMANO DX SPD'S.
Now don't get me wrong I have nothing against spd's I realise Peaty, Minnar, Gee have always used them and that the likes of Miami Bryce and Stevie Smith have started dabbling with them this season and even the most sketch and most watchable Danny Hart wears them and for pete's sake I used them for 10 years but I feel like a freakin beginner.
When on flats I would boost of massive drops and and hit rocky sections flat out and everything really but in the SPD's my confidence in my normal riding ability my normal riding exuberance seems to have retracted. Don't get me wrong I'd probably still kick your ass downhill on my new all mountain build, but some thing has change in my head when I put the spd's on.
So 20 years has passed 10 on SPD's and 10 on Flats and this dude on this forum wants to know which way to go.
My advice is It don't matter at your level it really does not matter, if your pure XC/XC racer and u know you don't really do Downhill with any sort of ability/gusto I'd go with spd's.
If you enjoy your downhill as much as your uphill, whatever your feel comfortable in, spds or flats it don't matter
if you want to get in to Downhill start on flats.
The main thing with flats is you get to learn the bike, to bunny hope high with flats is skill to bunny hope high in clips is fake (but useful).
The main thing with SPD's is power, when you need that extra you can really wind your cranks with the up stroke but this has to be practiced to be efficient and only really needed on really steep grippy climbs or of the start line.
Conclusion
Either will do unless you are a serious XC racer then spd's are what you need.
PeacePosted 11 months ago # -
@pistolpete2010
"Downhill was growing within me and within the u.k.
1996 my first downhill event "Quad descender" rivington pike Lancashire, snow on the top, four at a time bar banging race to the bottom (coincidentally it was the first ever outing of an orange full sus bike ever! looked more like a schwin home grown than the oranges we know today) I used spd's, everyone was at that race and guess who won.... Steve Peat."Titley came second... I came third and Dale Holmes backed out of the final!
I've been waiting years to get that off my chest.
Posted 8 months ago #
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