The BW from Greenlands? Widen the gate and I think you’d get a landrover up no bother.

though I think you’d struggle on the bit by the mobile mast, the singletrack just above the farm, the bit below the gate which is just singletrack and a ditch…….

Northwind – practically the entire countryside? You obviously don’t ride in the Peak District then!
I realise my opinion puts me in the minority, but so much of England (less so for Wales and Scotland) is already carved up with motorways and roads, it’s devoted to car culture. Sometimes you have to think about what’s appropriate. I don’t ride my bike through bowling greens and football pitches. Anyway, this had better be my last word on the subject before I start making enemies. I just HATE revving engines and stinky fumes in the countryside, of which there is an ever-shrinking quantity in this country!!!!

Firstly, I agree that more of the countryside needs to be opened up to us all I.E. walkers, cyclists, riders, 4×4’s and trial bikes alike, subsequently there will be far less conflict.

I also agree that a good start would be to open up more of the existing footpaths as BW’s (not that it currently stops me). But bare in mind that a lot of the footpaths aren’t suitable for MTB’ing, in fact a lot are crap for riding on so the walkers would still have their exclusive footpath havens, which again I agree with as I enjoy quiet walks with the kids as much as the next old winging rambler.

What I do object to, and there is no getting away from it, is the total ferkin mess the trial bikes and 4×4’s make of the routes that are un suitable for them and their total disregard for this. The Three Shires in Macclesfield is a perfect example. In one weekend with one of their special events they completely trashed a rocky trail that has existed for centuries, and their solution… throw a load more sandy grit stone down to improve their traction. It’s a total mess.

The point is there are places where walkers shouldn’t walk, cyclist shouldn’t cycle, horses shouldn’t trot and 4×4’s and trial bikes shouldn’t errr motor, not because of old laws and tradition but simply because it just isn’t bloody suitable. As I understand it that’s all the Peak District National Park are trying to enforce.

On a lighter note…. the amount of fat bellies and camouflage at the protest is very ferkin funny 😀 !

how would we get the aggregates and cement out, food and supplies (esp bread) into the park

Did you not read? 😀

horses, bicycles, mules, wild pigs

Nah, I’m just being flippant – not my part of the world, and none of my business. That said, past experience here in the S/W hasn’t left me exactly enamoured by recreational 4×4 drivers (I’ve nothing against their practical use as transport). I’d prefer to see more specially-designated areas (old quarries, as above), tbh.

vickypea – Member

Northwind – practically the entire countryside? You obviously don’t ride in the Peak District then!

Just to point out the obvious, but there are large areas of the Peaks that are almost completely free from exhausts and engines- you just can’t easily get there with an exhaust and an engine. Rides naturally tend to start and finish in places you can drive to.

though I think you’d struggle on the bit by the mobile mast, the singletrack just above the farm, the bit below the gate which is just singletrack and a ditch…….

Dunno, not ridden it for a while, I just rememeber the road then being out in the open.

[edit] I’m thinking the track upto hollins cross, then upto mam tor, then to complete the argument, rushup edge to chapel gate.

vickypea – Member
Northwind – practically the entire countryside? You obviously don’t ride in the Peak District then!

I do, I work in it and I live in it. Do we ban tractors, quads, trail bikes used by farmers, muck spreading (which makes you retch if you are close by), farm Landys – where do you draw the line? It’s a working landscape, it always has been. The PPPA want to pickle it in some non-existant period in time that never existed. Stop some activity but allow others that are far more ruinous. It’s a flawed concept and poorly managed.

On a lighter note…. the amount of fat bellies and camouflage at the protest is very ferkin funny

I thought the same 😀
Having said that, get them to roll up their trousers to show a bit of calf and stick a camelback on em, and they’d look like like 90% of the mtbers out there.

The pennie way had to be reinforced with helicopter flown in stone slabs because of the erosion caused by off road vehicles…

Oh no, hang on, that huge operation using the most noisy & polluting vehicles in the world was caused by walkers wasn’t it?

I do, I work in it and I live in it. Do we ban tractors, quads, trail bikes used by farmers, muck spreading (which makes you retch if you are close by), farm Landys – where do you draw the line? It’s a working landscape, it always has been. The PPPA want to pickle it in some non-existant period in time that never existed. Stop some activity but allow others that are far more ruinous. It’s a flawed concept and poorly managed.

… that’s taking what Northwind has said out of context and no one is suggesting that all those things you’ve mentioned are banned. The point is when you’re on a green lane or BW or footpath whilst your walking or riding your bike the trial bikes and 4×4’s (not those associted with working life in the Peaks, those used for recreation) are not pleasant, do stink, are noisy and do trash the trail if it’s not suitable terrain.

Edit…Messed that quote thing right up, now I make sense…. don’t I 😕

To add to northwind’s point above.

Why is Stannage so popular?

Because there is a nice view AND it has 4 car parks surrounding it

It makes me laugh then cry when people walk 10 yards from their car & start banging on about clean air

@thepodge – that applies to many popular footpaths. The ridge walk up Lose Hill and onto the cobbled summit of Mam Tor, the Skyline route on Kinder etc, etc – no bikes or vehicles on those routes, just the vibram soled jackboot of the ramblers. 😀

thepodge – Member
It makes me laugh then cry when people walk 10 yards from their car & start banging on about clean air

Usually with a fag on the go too.

Usually with a fag on the go too.

😀

…. and the Asda carrier bag full of donuts for the rest stop 10 minutes in !

I’m not talking about farm vehicles and other motorised working vehicles- it is entirely reasonable and appropriate to expect to encounter them. Since I live on the edge of the peak district I don’t often have to drive to rides, a lot of them are on my doorstep.

“The countryside is a factory without a roof”, to quote a farmer I met years ago. Not sure if it’s relevant but I found his outlook refreshingly straightforward.

Farmers used to get grants for various alternative uses for their land, then someone got their environmental knickers in a twist and revoked the grants for motorised activities. All of a sudden numerous off roading sites and the like closed as they weren’t financially viable, and hey presto, illegal off roading increased.

Who would have thought that would happen?

vickypea – Member

Since I live on the edge of the peak district I don’t often have to drive to rides, a lot of them are on my doorstep.

Which is also somewhere you can drive to

Vickypea, you won’t make an enemy of me! I think this is an important debate though, and it feels like we’re reaching boiling point.

There are more riders now than ever there were. Instead of groups competing for what is becoming increasingly restricted space, we should all (with the peak authority, landowners and other groups) be seeking ways to increase and manage access to the existing trail network.

Making all footpaths permissive bridleways – without making any changes to the paths in question would be a great start, in my opinion. Don’t make it easy to take advantage of the change, but allow access.

I don’t think the conflict you get between riders and walkers is because of the danger/fear of a collision; I truly believe it is more borne out of the fact that there is a perceived wrong being committed. The same kind of affront is felt by many when someone parks outside their house.

The 4×4 protest has a legitimate argument. If our access were to be reduced to a handful of trails in the peak and then there was a call to close off access to those too, we’d rightly be fuming and would probably do the same.

[edit] apologies for disjointed post here, I’m distracted….

Chris, that’s a very sensible approach.
I’d support that idea wholeheartedly.
Can’t see the local landowners going for it whilst they still have a hole in their bums.

Making all footpaths permissive bridleways – without making any changes to the paths in question would be a great start, in my opinion. Don’t make it easy to take advantage of the change, but allow access.

I agree wholeheartedly but you’d never in a million years get that one past the Ramblers Association!

This is why I don’t bother with the niceties of formalised agreements and I ride wherever I like! I take into account factors such as weather, trail conditions, how busy it will be and I ride accordingly. If that means I can’t ride a BW cos it’s a foot deep in mud or a busy summer Sunday then so be it but the argument works the other way too – deserted dry FP = fair game. 🙂
Sharing the countryside on a small scale.

I agree wholeheartedly but you’d never in a million years get that one past the Ramblers Association!

Isn’t it just the legal system rather than the Ramblers’ Association? Or do they control rights of way legislation?

Did people on this site worry about motorbikes and 4X4 in the Peaks before they owned a MTbike?When i first rode the peaks on a motorbike back in 1980 no one batted an eye lid.I use to talk to alot of walkers and have a good laugh with them while i was opening gates etc.Had alot of gates opened for me save me stopping.How things have changed mind the Roman road looks no different now.Alot of animosity in the countryside these days.

Why are muddy tracks in the countryside classed as erosion/damage? It is often a more natural state than a lot of the surfaced tracks.

The point about much of the countryside being an unnatural working environment is very valid. Very little of the peak district is truly natural.

The point is there are places where walkers shouldn’t walk, cyclist shouldn’t cycle, horses shouldn’t trot and 4×4’s and trial bikes shouldn’t errr motor, not because of old laws and tradition but simply because it just isn’t bloody suitable.

Maybe with a bigger % of the RoW network to choose from motorised users might have more scope to pick and choose the most appropriate routes.

Maybe with a bigger % of the RoW network to choose from motorised users might have more scope to pick and choose the most appropriate routes.

Hounkirk Moor (as it was), a long old roman road across the moor.

But some (well, a lot of) offroaders’ers decided it wasn’t technical enough

And on the way upto Stanage from the reservoir. Apparently this is referred to as ‘winching’ deliberately driving as far off the track as possible to get stuck, then digging your way out.

Based on the evidence I’d say picking appropriate routes isn’t their strong point!

And that’s why I’d not support the opening up of all footpaths to bikes and horses either. Individual poaching of cheeky trails is one thing, the damage is negligible, opening that up to every bike and horse rider in the country would be a problem. The problem 4×4’s/quads/motorbikes have is they do hundreds of times more damage in a single trip, so the argument that less frequent use of more tracks would be better doesn’t work in the same way.

As ever its always the minority of any pastime that cause problems
The rights of way issues should unite those that play in the outdoors
I say we’ll done for the protest

As a user group as I’m sure has been said they are only permitted to use a small amount of the network

So you think that the people who go illegally ‘off piste’ will really give a toss about and abide by any TRO’s / lane closures? No only those users who are responsible will. As ever legislation only effects those who abide by the law/rules. The ‘problem’ users will continue as they do, unfortunately. And also unfortunately any ‘off roaders’ seem to all get tarred (and feathered) with the same brush as the lowest common factor, especially on internet forums, and in the Daily Mail.

Isn’t it just the legal system rather than the Ramblers’ Association? Or do they control rights of way legislation?

Their cash/lobbying power does.
Sometimes 98% just isn’t enough.

I ride MTB and trail bikes, do trail building & maintenance, ride with a light throttle and pretty much leave no trace as far as I know when I ride the trail bike.
The TRF group I ride with are all 40+ blokes, the oldest is 70+. All on really quiet bikes. Only slight problem we ever had on a ride was with a woman in North Wales complaining about motorbikes in her neck of the woods. She’d moved there from Wigan for some peace and quiet 4 years previously. All the locals wave and chat.

So you think that the people who go illegally ‘off piste’ will really give a toss about and abide by any TRO’s / lane closures?

they will probably start a website called cheekymotrisedtrails with some “rules” and think they only do it responsibly because the law is unfair.

Obviosly we would not condone this sort of thing

I’ve walked, cycled and ridden trail bikes on the peaks over the last few years, so I can see both sides.
There is an issue with the ever decreasing number of legal trails forcing trail bikes and 4×4 onto fewer over used trails. I got rid of my trail bike a few years ago because I was fed up of doing the same old routes every weekend.
Chapel Gate was mentioned earlier – is this still open? The last time I drove past it I’m sure I saw a no vehicles notice at the top where it meets the road.
Trails bike riders doing illegal tracks are just shooting themselves in the foot – I was going along the ladybower road last sunday and a group disappeared up the Hagg Side bridleway, straight past the no vehicles notice. Likewise 4×4 drivers on Houndkirk going ‘off-piste’.
I don’t think we’re too far away from all of the remaining trails being closed to motorised users. It’ll be a shame for the users who follow the rules, but how long can the local authorities continue repairing damaged tracks? Houndkirk has now been repaired to such an extent that you could drive a family car along the majority of it without difficulty.

The 4x4s did wreck that bit of Houndkirk moor +the bit pictured above Stanage crazy.Just bloody mindless.Alot of Trail riders would like to see the back of 4x4s too.I mtb and trail ride think in time there will be a total ban.