Hundreds of motorcyclists and 4×4 drivers descended on the Peak District National Park offices this morning (Friday) to protest against plans to ban vehicles from certain trails in the area.

Debyshire Times coverage

Good for them!

On the one hand, thin end of the wedge, we’ll be next and all that scaremongering. Onther other hand, completely trashed trails.

Friday morning? Do they not have jobs to go to?

“Onther other hand, completely trashed trails. “

Given that only 2% of ‘tracks’ in England are open to vehicles I suspect it will be quite a small % of trashed trails.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/access/rightsofway/prow/default.aspx

I’m a lot more upset that I’m banned from 78% of the available trails (*actually a higher % than that due to limited R2R and new coast path).

I think what ever you are doing you should be prepared to fix the damage, or even better avoid it in the first place, that you make with what ever activity you do. This should apply to 4X4, biking, walking, horse riding. Why should you get a free lunch? I am really impressed what mountain bikers have done on Blackamoor for example as some parts used to be a right mess but people have got their fingers out and put something back.

The problem is that it takes a lot of organisation and agreements to do this kind of work and there are a lot of people that just expect to do as they please as it is “their right” without taking any responsibility.

interesting isn’t it. we have some trails on local FC land and have asked to help maintain them, but while they say they’re not totally against it – they arn’t exactly doing anything in a hurry to let us help

FunkyDunc – Member
Good for them!

+ 1

I have no personal axe to grind but there is a minority who are going to be cited as examples of the whole offroad community.

Friends wall (between them and a green lane) was taken down by a couple of 4×4 drives but they carried on without attempting to repair the wall.

Crossers blasting down bridleways at speeds which would catch other users unaware as they are not expected on a bridleway in a very busy bit of the park.

Two came close to me and my eldest lad as we descended Brough Lane – they came up at high speed and didn’t see us until they were on top of us, fortunately I had pulled him over to the edge suspecting what was about to happen. One came over the hill in mid jump.

There are permissible tracks that are in desperate need of driving & riding to keep them open, but that would take some effort to cut back undergrowth and in once case very close to me, some trail repairs. It’s easier to drive and ride open trails.

Specific and isolated examples but they happen every weekend, the park is increasingly populated by NIBYs who hate to have their peace disrupted.

Personally, I think it’s great to have mixed activity in the park but GEDA is absolutely spot on.

+ another

The countryside is for everyone even those with motors and they get far less than we do

Crossers blasting down bridleways at speeds which would catch other users unaware as they are not expected on a bridleway in a very busy bit of the park.

Bit like a near silent MTB is to a walker?

Not having a go just pointing out that all users have someone they moan about it goes
Walkers – MTB- Crossers and 4×4
[ Only dogs created confusion for all groups 😉 ]
All for sharing personally they are not just for me
Reasonable points have been made re damage

Junkyard – Member
The countryside is for everyone even those with motors and they get far less than we do
Crossers blasting down bridleways at speeds which would catch other users unaware as they are not expected on a bridleway in a very busy bit of the park.
Bit like a near silent MTB is to a walker?

Clearly your riding style is far different from mine, they would be able to hear me effing and jeffing long before I crawled into view.

Rogerthecat

Glad its not just me

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPERR2aybc[/video]

Given that only 2% of ‘tracks’ in England are open to vehicles I suspect it will be quite a small % of trashed trails.

Yes, but those 2%………

You could argue that opening up more trails would spread the pressure and reduce erosion ont hose 2%, but I think the more likely outcome would be just a bigger percentage of trashed trails.

It’s one thing a MTB or horse turning a trail to mud over the winter, on the whole they recover as soon as the ground dries out. Motorbikes and 4×4’s dig huge trenches which never recover.

I agree there are some comparisons between MTB’s and motorised users, but we’ve about 0.5% of the power of even a basic offroad motorbike. So even if there are 200x more of us we prpbably do comparable erosion and that’s 200 cups of tea and slices of cake in the local tea room, Vs 1 from the motorbiker.

I like motorbikes, they’re fun. But we’re just too crowded for them offroad so even in the small numbers they do diproportionate damage.

@TINAS: Your first point negates the argument for opening more footpaths to mountain bikes.

It would have the desired effect of breaking the honeypots – round Derwent on a decent day is insanely busy. If all those riders could spread over a wider area, the trails would resist erosion and recover quicker – this also works for motorised access.

I agree that a crosser gunning it up a muddy/loose trail will carve it up (Brough Lane is a great example, or just ride up to the old quarries on the top of Bradwell Moor to see it in graphic detail) but confined activity will render those trails unusable.

confined activity will render those trails unusable.

I guess there’s an argument that says we shoudl; tolerate 2% of permanantly unusable rights of way to keep motorised vehicles off the other 98%.

Your first point negates the argument for opening more footpaths to mountain bikes.

And?

Whilst I’d not be agaisnt opening access of MTB’ers (it’d be in my intrests) I’d not go out of my way to suppourt it. There’s probably only a small percentage that are;
a) worth riding (decent to broken road corner off Mam torr?)
b) sustainable for riding (probably not the above, but plenty of big wide well surfaced tracks that arent bridleways)

Obviously theres a big ‘c’ category makingup the majority of footpaths no one wants to ride and would therefore be sustainable for the few who do.

Ok, real world experiences here from me.
The Tennyson Trail runs from Freshwater to Newport along the spine of the downs (bit like the SDW only easier!)
When I first moved to the island motor vehicles were not permitted, fine trail was reasonably broad, but weathered the seasons well. Motorised vehicles were premitted in the early noughties, result track widens, damage to trail etc quite dramtic in places and results after about 6 years of them being banned again. 5 years later trail is now in a similar state to how it was pre motorised traffic.
Now this is a resonably well drained trail and handle bikes and walker well, but heavy motorised offroaders just ruined the trail very quickly, not to mention the muppets who viewed ancient bronze age burial mounds as a challenge to ascend / descend.
This is all in a predominantly rural setting with low population desity. I shudder to think how it would end up if it was allowed in the Peaks, with a much larger population nearby.

They have had a few road protests last year on some Sundays.
Always a danger not be able to go anywhere so go everywhere!!!!!!!!!.

They have had a few road protests last year on some Sundays.
Always a danger not be able to go anywhere so go everywhere!!!!!!!!!.

I shudder to think how it would end up if it was allowed in the Peaks, with a much larger population nearby

The thing is, it already is allowed in certain areas. The powers that be have been trying to stop it for the past few years, citing some pretty ropey and at times conflicting arguments.

“It’s one thing a MTB or horse turning a trail to mud over the winter, on the whole they recover as soon as the ground dries out. Motorbikes and 4×4’s dig huge trenches which never recover.” – don’t entirely agree, but do accept on a per ‘type’ basis vehicles do much more damage than human power, IME I find you can often ride in or alongside huge trenches, and I find horses seem to use every available inch so making it impassable, I’ve also never seen a lane TROD’d(*usage banned to a specific user type) becuase of overhorseing, it certainly happens with overvehicling, another IME is that a lot of the BIG ruts are caused by agricultural vehicles, and I’m not sure banning them would be that clever.

I think that 2% is mean, and I’d adjust to 5% for vehicles, 65% for cycling leaving 35% solely as footpaths – sharing the countryside.

Given the numbers – 2% vs 78% I realy do think we should be trying to eat into footpath land and not trying to urinate on somebody else’s chips for a very small personal gain.

With my cynical head on, I wonder if there would be such an issue if there were a large number of free (*well parking charges excluded obviously) centres provided for people to go offroad vehicling at. I also wonder why people can’t take the attitude – well that X mile track doesn’t handle vehicles but that X mile footpath over there would – so how about we swop ?, it’s always take and no give.

I think it probably goes without saying that if you restrict legal offroading til the pips squeak, people who were legal offroaders will become illegal offroaders. I reckon we’re already past that point but that doesn’t mean going further’s a good idea.

Just like MTBs riding footpaths* Northwind?

*technically not illegal

A large population fighting over an ever decreasing amount of public space.. Whether its fishermen v watersports.. bikes v hikers.. 4×4 x horses.. birdwatchers v dog walkers.. can only see it getting worse.

Far too many individual groups trying to get exclusive rights.. Whats needed is for us to learn to share a bit more.

“The countryside is for everyone”- but the noise and pollution made by motor vehicles gets right on my wick. Is there nowhere that we can be free from flipping’ roaring engines and exhaust fumes?

Yeah – the countryside.

That’s kind of their point.

I’ve had motorbikes riding on my back wheel on rocky descents, leaving themselves no braking distance if I was to fall off!

I’ve had motorbikes riding on my back wheel on rocky descents, leaving themselves no braking distance if I was to fall off!

Could be worse, I usualy get stuck behind them (and I’m not that quick!)

If they had more access rights, perhaps there wouldn’t have been that level of congestion on the trail in question.

Opening up access will spread the load.

And encourage more people to destroy the peace and quiet
🙂

Pook – Member

Just like MTBs riding footpaths* Northwind?

Absolutely. Though, I reckon if you legalised 99% of all paths in England, people would still ride the 1% 😉

vickypea – Member

Is there nowhere that we can be free from flipping’ roaring engines and exhaust fumes?

Yes- practically the entire countryside.

“No more cars in national parks. Let the people walk. Or ride horses, bicycles, mules, wild pigs – anything – but keep the automobiles and the motorcycles and all their motorized relatives out. We have agreed not to drive our automobiles into cathedrals, concert halls, art museums, legislative assemblies, private bedrooms and the other sanctums of our culture; we should treat our national parks with the same deference.”

– Edward Abbey.

I’m not getting involved… I just like the quote. 😈 😉

If they had more access rights, perhaps there wouldn’t have been that level of congestion on the trail in question

so if they opened up Mam Tor to motorized trafic, would that mean
a) Chapel gate being less erroded
b) Chapel gate and Mam Tor being erroded?

Where on Mam Tor could you realistically get a 4×4 up? Use a decent example and we might have a debate.

There are countless tracks which would be perfectly suitable for motorised vehicles to use – those on mam tor aren’t. Chapel Gate is/was. Roych clough and that path is.

In the Peak there are a lot of old quarry sites (top of Bradda Moor is one prime example) that could be used for crossers and 4×4. We went up for a little “explore” early last Sunday morning on the bikes (MTB) and there was some sparse play areas for us but it was perfect for crossers and 4x4s. Up there they are out of the way, cannot be heard in the valley and can get to it using a few nice lanes (may have to clear a couple to do so) and that would provide a great resource, bring money into the park and not conflict with other users.

I was out spotting for Pook over Christmas on some white Peak routes and there are lost of tracks that are solid and rideable but are only footpaths, they would make excellent bridleways.

Re horses damaging tracks – large quadrupeds have very high point loadings through their feet so they wreck soft ground very quickly – the track down the face of Bradwell Edge is testament to that – some horses and a lot of cows. A mudbath in the wet, almost unrideable when either frozen or dry because of the way they leave the ground. So, they are not completely benign.

The BW from Greenlands? Widen the gate and I think you’d get a landrover up no bother.

noteeth – Member

“No more cars in national parks. Let the people walk. Or ride horses, bicycles, mules, wild pigs – anything – but keep the automobiles and the motorcycles and all their motorized relatives out. We have agreed not to drive our automobiles into cathedrals, concert halls, art museums, legislative assemblies, private bedrooms and the other sanctums of our culture; we should treat our national parks with the same deference.”

– Edward Abbey.

I’m not getting involved… I just like the quote.

He can shove that up his bum, I’m not walking home. Also interesting how Mrs Cat would have done her old job, how would we get the aggregates and cement out, food and supplies (esp bread) into the park – or are we going to have the Peak Clearances? 😆

I think the best solution is more National Parks. Peaks would be quieter if Manchester/Cheshire/Birmingham could be perswaded to spend their days out in mid Wales.