[Closed] Paramo - why the love?

You can take the foam out. They shouldn't leak just walking about, only if you sit or kneel somewhere wet.

Don't know if it's emperor's new clothes - it's been around for some time. Look at it as a heavy duty softshell rather than an out and out waterproof maybe.

I use it a lot, but I live in the West Highlands, where it just rains and rains. So for here it's ideal.

If I lived in the dryer, colder Alps I'd probably use something else.

Horses for courses?

My current favourite is Cascada trousers and an Aspira jacket (long enough to cover my arse), with only a short sleeve base layer underneath. It looks shit, I'm the first to admit, but I stay warm and dry, which is all that matters.

Don't own any of their stuff and not really aware of them at all, however

they're flogging them as some sort of all-day-wearable shizzle

Added protection and insulation via our unique slimline removable knee foam inserts

I've got a Velez thingummy, not the adventure one, the one with the detachable hood. I must say the hand warmers inside the zips confuse me a little, but perhaps they are just that - somewhere to warm your hands rather than pockets. I never really use them.

I also find mine very warm and use it more as a winter shell. All in all I like it though, good water resistance, doesn't rustle like a lot of other kit, fits well, very comfortable. I'd wear it a lot more if I lived somewhere colder!

With Goretex you get wet from the inside of the jacket if you're working hard. Paramo is designed to sacrifice some of that waterproofing to prevent that getting wet from the inside. Obviously if you're mot working hard then it'll n ot be the best option for you.

I wouldnt wear it the hills in winter as you go like greased shit off a teflon shovel if you fall over on snow.

SBZ prepares for a walk in the snow.

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The theory of the materials sounds good, shame they don't try and do some more cycling specific designs.

I wouldnt wear it the hills in winter as you go like greased shit off a teflon shovel if you fall over on snow.

You might not, but plenty of MRTs and Mountaineering Instructors wear it, so evidently it's fine for that.

Still, good to have a handy excuse for your own incompetence I suppose.

think it is love or hate i love it, i aspira kit is for extreme cold weather i have the velez adventure (not the light)which is fine for cold weather you only need very little underneath i usally wear a very thin microfleece
i have cascada trousers which are really comfy for cold weather i think its all over priced though as is most walking kit plenty on fleabay

I wouldnt wear it the hills in winter as you go like greased shit off a teflon shovel if you fall over on snow.

On the occasions when I've intentionally taken the quick way down a hill, I can't say I've noticed Event or Goretex offering much in the way of friction either. I'd have thought if you went off your feet through clumsiness or misfortune on a snow slope that was steep/hard enough, your choice of shell material is going to be pretty immaterial.

The performance is outstanding in many conditions. You need to wear less under it than with other waterproofs due to the extra insulation, and you need to clean it regularly (they say wash it as often as you'd wash a jumper - I'm slack and only tended to wash it annually or thereabouts and had a damp arm experience) or it'll leak in heavy rain.

I've worn a Velez smock and Cascada trousers for skiing in sub -20 conditions (lifts closing down and everyone leaving the mountain) and the Velez smock for tons of hillwalking, horseriding, cycling and casual use (trousers are good when it's properly cold and wet - best on their own, not over other trousers, because then you can vent them well). They're big and heavy if you're just keeping them in your pack and the cut is annoyingly middle-aged.

In terms of breathability in UK conditions (wet, humid and not really cold) they make membrane/coating based waterproofs look like plastic bags. Just wish they'd make more that suits younger or more athletic people! Velez and Quito are the least bad in that sense. Clearly they make plenty of money going after the other market sectors... Nice ethical approach too.

Got several garments of paramo and recommend it tbh.
Quito jacket
Use this as my all season foul weather walking/winter biking jacket. Although its billed as their lightweight high activity jacket in summer it gets to hot for biking in. But then again my berghouse goretex was as well.
Ferura windproof
Brilliant bit of kit, my go to jacket for most of the year. Packs down small. Not as small as the montane velo but it's far more robust. Come off the bike several times and it's always come out unscathed. Coat it with tx direct and it will stand a good hour of persistant rain. Very breathable as well.
Velez adventure trousers
Use these for walking the dog/ pottering about in the rain and have no complaints of them whatsoever.
One of the things I like about paramo is there lifetime guarantee. Wife has some 4yr old cascarda pants which had its stitching came undone around the crotch area. Sent them off and within a week came back fixed, cleaned and reproofed. They were as good as new.

Paramo - why the love?

It works. I only got my Velez back in September but I've banged on about it several times on here already. It's the only jacket i've ever owned that is satisfactorily waterproof and breathable for the activities I do.

they make membrane/coating based waterproofs look like plastic bags.

+1

I had the 1st generation Paramo salopettes back in the early nineties, they were pretty useless in UK for 9 months and summer Alpinism, just far far too warm. They spent most of their time hanging off me, completely unzipped. They possibly came into their own in the winter, a Scottish Blizzard perhaps. never bothered with their stuff since. Like someone says, when pressed against something ie wearing a harness or sitting on a rock, moisture just soaked thru.

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Isn't the Aspira range aimed at mountaineers, hence the crampon patches, reinforced knees, drop seat etc.? I tried on a pair in pegglars last winter and they seemed good, just overkill for what I wanted.

I do have a torres smock from Paramo, which is great for pulling on whilst belaying or at food stops, pretty bulky compared to a down jacket, but being able to put it over a wet shell means it's ideal for UK mountains.

Why the need to say that you think I'm incompetent in the mountains? I merely pointed out that my experience shows me that Paramo gear leads to a faster decent on snow that other materials. Used to get kit given to me from Paramo and Berghaus for free to test in the hills.

The bit about incompetence was just in jest, don't take it seriously.

In fact, I retract it, it sounds mean.

If it's too warm in winter you're wearing too many layers under it.

Love my Quito jacket, too much really because I never use it on the bike, just for bodding around in. Would definitely buy again.

Paramo is completely unsuitable for sumer use, even more than Gore-Tex, it's far too hot, but it's fabulous for winter (<8 degrees for me). Compared to shells, I find it far, far more breathable, completely waterproof (in real life - far more so than any shell I've ever used), and suitable for venting or closing up without losing its breathability. And it doesn't rustle and is generally really comfortable.

Now if they would only sort out the styling to be even an tiny bit more stylish!

Do they do a waterproof-equivalent for bikers?

I own a paramo smock. One of the best bits of kit I have ever bought. Windproof, shower resistant and a very good level of breathability.

Do they do a waterproof-equivalent for bikers?

I use my Velez for road and mountain biking. It is ace and without doubt the best waterproof/breathable I have ever used for cycling.

Ta...available from £120 it seems, are they that much more real-life breathable than the usual?

I've had a Paramo jacket, forget which, for going on ten years now. It's got a drop tail to cover my rear and has been used on the trail and pressed into general commuting use.
I clean it once in a while with Nik Wax wash and reproof it and it still works amazingly well. It's also had a few spills which would have finished off a membrane jacket, such as my Sombrio which ripped the first time I had an off.
Have to agree on the style front though, a bit bland looking.

Having written for a few outdoor/climbing magazines over the years I have a belief that the best bits of kit are those you don't talk about. You don't talk about them 'cause you just get on and use them and they do what you want them to do. Yep, Paramo stuff is on the hot side, yep, if you sit down on wet your bum will get wet after a while. But, over the years all of my Paramo gear is the stuff I go for when in doubt as I know it will simply 'work'. I think you learn to love Paramo over time. When you've had one pair of their trousers for 15 years and they're still going strong you tend to, on reflection, realise how great the stuff is. I've tried all sorts of brands and technologies but for really shite, cold and wet weather it's the best there is. Scottish mountaineers who face some of the worst weather in the Isles have a deep love for the stuff!

are they that much more real-life breathable than the usual?

Assuming you mean "usual [b]waterproofs[/b]" then in my experience yes. It's the only jacket I've ridden with in horrible rain and still felt comfortably dry and warm.

...the best bits of kit are those you don't talk about

although when I "discovered" Paramo I couldn't stop raving about it to anyone who would listen. I've only converted my Dad so far 🙂

The amount of mountain rescue teams that use it also speaks volumes.

Scottish mountaineers who face some of the worst weather in the Isles have a deep love for the stuff!

The instructor on a course I did a couple of years back was part of an MRT team and he raved about his Aspira salopettes when we were chatting gear in the pub - it was largely that recommendation that's resulted in me buying this pair to try them out.

Hmmm Velez 2nds £100 on fleabay actually...720gm seems bloody heavy, how many layers?

[i]Hmmm Velez 2nds £100 on fleabay actually...720gm seems bloody heavy, how many layers? [/i]

Yep - a bit heavy but wear less under it. Their stuff is better worn and not carried.

Hmmm Velez 2nds £100 on fleabay actually...720gm seems bloody heavy, how many layers?

Yep - a bit heavy but wear less under it. Their stuff is better worn and not carried.

there are 3 velez versions the older one with detachable hood is the heaviest then the velez adventure then the velez adventure light

The nice thing is you can layer more on top even when they're wet.

None of this stripping off to add another base layer nonsense. 🙂

Parmo - whats not to love ..mmmmmmm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/wordofmouth/2009/oct/09/parmo-regional-snack-foods

I used to love Buffalo gear, simple, just works really well in the shittiest conditions.
Paramo seems to inspire a similar level of devotion, at a significantly higher price.

Layers/membranes work ok, but it's all a bit of a faff really.

None of this stripping off to add another base layer nonsense

You mean using a 'belay' jacket - I was surprised when I saw Paramo's Torres touted as a 'new concept', as mountaineers have been throwing oversized synthetic insulation over the top of everything else for a fair while now! It's hardly an innovative concept unique to Paramo.

I got given a waterproof jacket and over trousers last year as I did a few months as a Ranger over winter.
Lovely bits of kit but I'm happy that I didn't have to foot the bill.
Lots of zips to let the heat out as well.
Tim

Its too bloody warm for my tastes and I am damned if I am taking my vest off to wear it. That would expose me to the horrid lining. Its like velour, catches on rough skin etc and is all synthetic feeling. Uggg.
I refuse to believe that in this day and age we have to keep repoofing our kit. Might as well wear my waxed cotton. i have a hooded windproof shell of their's but to be honest its no better than the cheapy pertex thing I got in TKmaxx. Keeps plenty of wind off and some rain as does the other. 1 was 5 times the price of the other .

Now Buffalo, that different but still too pricey when you can get the same effect with my cheap windproof and a genuine Helly Hansen pile jacket which is far nicer than the cheapy Buffalo stuff.
I disagree with the idea of slinging a insulated layer on top when you stop. If its wet you then get that wet which is heavier and needs keeping seperate when you sling it back in the sack when you start to move.Maybe greatin dry conditions but in the uk most of the time. Nope. Any insulation looses effect if it gets sodden so why not quickly ditch the waterproof, sling on a layer and then re don the waterproof? Takes a few seconds.
I would love to like Paramo but it has too much against it for me.

Paramo: cut poorly, but about the only thing that actually stays waterproof (with treatment) and keeps you dry up here (Highlands, bunch of outdoor instructors).
Those sallopettes are the shizzle on a cold, wet, snow day or paddling in a canoe, or gorgewalking etc. But waaaay to warm most of the time.
If I lived somewhere less challenging in the cold n wet department, I would probably buy cheapest jacket from a good brand (like my Montane Meteor DT jacket).

Dunno if it's changed much since the late nineties but my paramo waterproof trousers were getting on for the worst £100 I've spent on outdoor gear. As mentioned earlier, too hot unless it's properly Baltic, the sales pitch that it's more easily repaired than goretex is handy because just about anything could damage it. Kneeling or sitting lets the water through and the drawstring waist required constant hitching to stay up. I went on to buy some Goretex Sprayway mountaineering salopettes (1998) and they are still going strong.

It's used by some MR teams that I know for a reason. And it's not to do with it's performance. When I said to my mate you luck sod its free he replied "No we have to go and collect it".

I was curious about Paramo for many years. I eventually bought a Velez Adventure Light smock in September.

I've since worn it in various inclement weather (snow, sleet, hail, rain, wind) on foot and on a bike and it has kept me comfortable (far, far more-so than my shell jackets) and dry. With just a base layer underneath it works over a wide range of temperatures -opening the zips allows the jacket to work well in warmer conditions.

I really like mine, but each to their own.

Far far far superior to any breathable membrane jacket. I got sick of using goretex that simply couldn't deal with perspiration, leaving me soaking wet inside and eventually wetting out on the outside.
Did 3 hours in that fine rain that wets you through yesterday, and stayed completely dry. It just works.

I've just been having an interesting e-mail exchange with Paramo which went a bit like this:

Me: It's not waterproof. When I lean against something water comes through even though I reproof it regularly.

Paramo: Have you tried reproofing it?

Me: See my original mail. I reproof it at the start of each winter and it makes no difference.

Paramo: Have you tried reproofing it? Due to the nature of the fabric if you put pressure on it it will force water through.

Me: So its not waterproof then?

Paramo: It is waterproof we tested it at Leeds university. Once the pressure comes off it will start moving the water back out again.

Me: Thats not great if my longjohns are now wet and chilly.

Paramo: If you want to send it back to us you can.

Paramo are in denial about it's waterproofness.

That said I find it awesome for Scottish winter climbing and ski touring provided it doesn't rain too much and you don't sweat too much or are able to leave the vents open on the walk in.

Stop leaning against things 🙂

Happy to help

Spin, it doesn't have a membrane like a gore tex, so yes, lean against something hard and water will eventually come through. I'm amazed that ever happens to you in real life though.

In two or three years of real use, nothing for me has ever come close in terms of keeping me dry and comfortable, even in some truly disgusting situations.

Stop leaning against things

I have an inherited condition which means I frequently need to stop and lean against something.

But you didn't consider that before posting your hurtful comments did you?

Spin, it doesn't have a membrane like a gore tex,

I know but it's marketed as waterproof.

I'm amazed that ever happens to you in real life though.

Winter climbing it happens all the time. It doesn't even need to be hard, high steps where your knees are pressed against the fabric are enough.

It is waterproof, we end up proofing about every 6 weeks or so at work to keep it so. Good clean with soapflakes, then really good rinse, then proof works well.
As I said before - poor cut and design, but the only thing to keep you dry and warm IMO up here long term. Stuff starts well, and a few weeks/months in stops working. I guess for Joe average, our three months work is a a years use.

I'd love to give it a go, but it would be an expensive "trial" and as someone who runs hot anyway, I'm unwilling to take the chance.

I've used a Buffalo jacket in the past and there's definitely something incongruous about walking at 4,000 ft, in a raging blizzard, with bare flesh exposed through the side zips - but it does the job.

Meanwhile, I've a new eVent jacket for hillwalking which has, so far, proved to be both waterproof and breathable and a GoreTex ActiveShell jacket for cycling which is also working out really well.

Spin, it really does sound like yours needs reproofing. You need to wash it with techwash or soap flakes before you proof it, use the measured amount. If water starts to come through you need to repeat, the hydrophobic coating is a major component that keeps the water out. Once a season clearly isn't enough for you.

Spin, it really does sound like yours needs reproofing

Do you work for Paramo?

I reproof them at the start of each season as per instructions and it makes no difference to the pressure issue it still occurs on the first outings after reproofing.

Spin, I have no connection with the outdoors industry, Paramo or anyone associated.

I just don't know anyone who uses Paramo (there's probably about ten of us in my group of friends) who has ever experienced the problem of water coming through if they hadn't needed to reproof.

I just don't know anyone who uses Paramo who has ever experienced the problem of water coming through if they hadn't needed to reproof

There have been quite a few threads about this over on UKC and several folk above saying the same as me. I am not alone. I expect it's not a problem walkers would notice but climbers definately do.

Don't get me wrong, I love it for Scottish winter climbing but I think it's being a bit economical with the truth to claim it's waterproof. Highly water resistant might be a better claim but that wont sell jackets.

Ive been using it for well over a decade, and they always said that water can be forced through under pressure. That's why the saloppettes have foam in the seat and knees.

Spin, I can sort of see where you're coming from, but for a day in the driving rain in the hills it keeps me drier than any gore tex ever has. For me the garment deserves the waterproof moniker more than gore tex, even if the fabric doesn't.

I though it was acknowledged and stated by Paramo that water comes through if you lean on stuff - it's certainly very well known - but in fairness to spin, I can't find anything on their website that says that. Perhaps they used to but don't anymore?

Druidh. I have a Large Velez Adventure Light in the shop for demo purposes if you want to give it a try. Email in profile.

Druidh, it really is as good as it sounds.

I was curious/sceptical until I got mine. It was an expensive gamble, but it has paid off so far.

I too 'run warm' (on the mtb I generally wear just a base layer and add a waterproof when colder -when many other riders are wearing multiple base and mid layers), but I've found that the Velez Adventure Light has been great. I'm not sure how it will be in hot weather, but my other jackets aren't too great in hot weather either.

I got sick of using goretex that simply couldn't deal with perspiration, leaving me soaking wet inside

That's why I have an eVent jacket. Fundamentally different to Goretex etc because the membrane has loads of tiny holes. It's WAY more breathable than Goretex in UK conditions - its breathability is unaffected by temperature and humidity.

notlocal, I'll borrow it, druidh is tiny 😉

THing is I run hot too, and tend to not hang about on rides...therefore if I have a waterproof on all I need underneath is one base layer.

I also equate weight with sweatiness.

I wouldn't wear it for riding; but then I don't bother with goretex or anything else like that while on the bike. For walking, hiking etc, it's great, but would need proper minus temps to use on a bike.

but you're a frikkin animal

No, a sweaty little fella!

its breathability is unaffected by temperature and humidity.

As it's a membrane I suspect it is affected by temperature and humidity. To cross the membrane the humidity outside would need to be lower than that inside. Unless osmosis has changed since I last did any science 😉

Must admit I've also never really 'got' Paramo gear - I can't get past seeing a mate with soaking legs and torso after a particularly soggy scramble up a hillside - his knees were presumably stretching the fabric as he took big steps up/knelt down and his (admittedly really heavy) pack did a nice job of forcing water through the top. Lots of people do love it however.

Edit - thread made me google it as I also recall it was a pain that needed reproofing all the time, some people actually recommend proofing it before every decent walk, the fox forks of outdoor jackets?

I'm a big Paramo fan, but only over the winter months as I to find it touch warm in the summer. I think what folk are forgetting, is that the main consideration about any clothing system is not ultimately whether it's "waterproof", but does it maintain an acceptable body temperature. Paramo and Buffalo are not waterproof in the conventional sense as you cannot test there hydrostatic heads (column of water on the fabric) but both work to maintain core temperature. As for re-proofing, Gore/eVent also needs to be cleaned and reproofed from time to time as if the outer "wets out" then it will no longer "breathe". Also eVent and Gore both use PTFE membranes, it's the treatment of the inner side of the fabric that differs, basically making eVent more breathable when new, but more prone to degradation in performance due to dirt and grime.

notlocal - a genuine "thanks very much" for the offer. However, I'm a medium in most manufacturers ranges.

Event more breathable than goretex as the membrane has loads of tiny holes??

Isn't the whole point of goretex the erm, tiny holes?

Anyone tried Furtech?

A chap who worked for Paramo set up a company which does a handful of products. The jackets are a bit more athletically cut but the same type of fabric. I was drawn to the closer fit and more mountain friendly features.

I gave it a bash a couple of years ago and after it eventually got sodden I was too cold to warm it back up again to dry it out (uni trip, slow pace with many stops). When fully soaked it takes ages to dry out. Despite this on the day of use I was more comfortable than my shell wearing chums.

I find in Scottish winter I need only merino with an eVent jacket on top. Any more and I'm cooking. Also I wonder about the pressure from a 70l bag squeezing water through the fabric. It seems to creep through the strap covered areas of my Rab jacket, which makes me think far more will come through a pile fabric jacket.

It's a shame, I can see the Furtech has a lot of potential but doesn't quite hit the spot.

I am amazed that waterproofing something so regularly is regarded as good. Surely we can do better than that.
To me, if it lets water from the outside through anything but designed holes it isn't waterproof. To suggest that trousers will leak if you sit down is crazy.
I regard the stuff as just another way of keeping you warm and wet.

I'm not sure I'd want Paramo trousers. If I wear waterproof trousers, I wear my fairly rugged Army Surplus Gore-tex trousers with the Velez Adventure light jacket.

ps. Each to their own. Feel free to buy whatever outdoor clothing you like!

I think the point with Paramo is that there are a lot of users - myself included - who have tried and been unimpressed by Gore-tex, eVent and countless others who then take a punt with Paramo and are very impressed. Sure, there will be some people who don't like it or some people who don't "get it", but it does stand on the merits of those who use and rate it rather than the figures and stats that a laboratory can churn out.

My first outing was a walk up to Kinder Downfall on a typically bleak and wet day . It keep me comfortable and not at all clammy on the walk up and kept me dryer - and importantly - more comfortable than any waterproof whilst up top when the rain really set in. I've since found it superb for cycling too.

If you can try before buying it is well worth having a test drive.

Ive been using it for well over a decade, and they always said that water can be forced through under pressure. That's why the saloppettes have foam in the seat and knees.

As per my post on P1, they were pretty useless in UK for 9 months and for summer Alpinism, just far far too warm. They spent most of their time hanging off me, completely unzipped. They possibly came into their own in the winter, a Scottish Blizzard perhaps. when pressed against something ie wearing a harness or sitting on a rock, moisture just soaked thru.

Anyone tried Furtech?

Yep, jacket and trousers.

Jacket is quite good. Thicker material than Paramo, so warmer. Closer cut, and even with XL it tight around my upper arm which then feels colder. My Paramo jackets are baggier, so I don't know if this helps with comfort by perhaps keeping some warm air in? Quality is pretty good but not as good as Paramo. Customer service from the chap was excellent.

Trousers I didn't get on with, poor cut or poor figure, take your pick!

Looking at the website and stock levels, I wonder if he's winding it down once he's sold everything?

Event more breathable than goretex as the membrane has loads of tiny holes??

Isn't the whole point of goretex the erm, tiny holes?

In theory, yes. Original goretex had tiny holes, but the stuff they made the membrane out of was so fragile they had to bond it to polyeurethane which doenst have holes. Instead it sucks the moisture through. This is why the inside of a goretex jacket is always damp - it needs to be, this dampness is the water waiting to be sucked through.

It depends on the temperature and humidity gradient.

As it's a membrane I suspect it is affected by temperature and humidity.

Not really, the holes mean that air can flow through the entire garment (try one, you notice it). It's no different in this respect from a Paramo garment which is breathable because of the tiny spaces in the weave I assume.

This is an interesting read, but they don't deal in humidity differential - just average humidity on both sides of the membrane. It's a study on how humidity in general affects breathability.

Looks like eVent kicks the crap out of Goretex.