[Closed] Paramo - why the love?

I've just been having an interesting e-mail exchange with Paramo which went a bit like this:

Me: It's not waterproof. When I lean against something water comes through even though I reproof it regularly.

Paramo: Have you tried reproofing it?

Me: See my original mail. I reproof it at the start of each winter and it makes no difference.

Paramo: Have you tried reproofing it? Due to the nature of the fabric if you put pressure on it it will force water through.

Me: So its not waterproof then?

Paramo: It is waterproof we tested it at Leeds university. Once the pressure comes off it will start moving the water back out again.

Me: Thats not great if my longjohns are now wet and chilly.

Paramo: If you want to send it back to us you can.

Paramo are in denial about it's waterproofness.

That said I find it awesome for Scottish winter climbing and ski touring provided it doesn't rain too much and you don't sweat too much or are able to leave the vents open on the walk in.

Stop leaning against things 🙂

Happy to help

Spin, it doesn't have a membrane like a gore tex, so yes, lean against something hard and water will eventually come through. I'm amazed that ever happens to you in real life though.

In two or three years of real use, nothing for me has ever come close in terms of keeping me dry and comfortable, even in some truly disgusting situations.

Stop leaning against things

I have an inherited condition which means I frequently need to stop and lean against something.

But you didn't consider that before posting your hurtful comments did you?

Spin, it doesn't have a membrane like a gore tex,

I know but it's marketed as waterproof.

I'm amazed that ever happens to you in real life though.

Winter climbing it happens all the time. It doesn't even need to be hard, high steps where your knees are pressed against the fabric are enough.

It is waterproof, we end up proofing about every 6 weeks or so at work to keep it so. Good clean with soapflakes, then really good rinse, then proof works well.
As I said before - poor cut and design, but the only thing to keep you dry and warm IMO up here long term. Stuff starts well, and a few weeks/months in stops working. I guess for Joe average, our three months work is a a years use.

I'd love to give it a go, but it would be an expensive "trial" and as someone who runs hot anyway, I'm unwilling to take the chance.

I've used a Buffalo jacket in the past and there's definitely something incongruous about walking at 4,000 ft, in a raging blizzard, with bare flesh exposed through the side zips - but it does the job.

Meanwhile, I've a new eVent jacket for hillwalking which has, so far, proved to be both waterproof and breathable and a GoreTex ActiveShell jacket for cycling which is also working out really well.

Spin, it really does sound like yours needs reproofing. You need to wash it with techwash or soap flakes before you proof it, use the measured amount. If water starts to come through you need to repeat, the hydrophobic coating is a major component that keeps the water out. Once a season clearly isn't enough for you.

Spin, it really does sound like yours needs reproofing

Do you work for Paramo?

I reproof them at the start of each season as per instructions and it makes no difference to the pressure issue it still occurs on the first outings after reproofing.

Spin, I have no connection with the outdoors industry, Paramo or anyone associated.

I just don't know anyone who uses Paramo (there's probably about ten of us in my group of friends) who has ever experienced the problem of water coming through if they hadn't needed to reproof.

I just don't know anyone who uses Paramo who has ever experienced the problem of water coming through if they hadn't needed to reproof

There have been quite a few threads about this over on UKC and several folk above saying the same as me. I am not alone. I expect it's not a problem walkers would notice but climbers definately do.

Don't get me wrong, I love it for Scottish winter climbing but I think it's being a bit economical with the truth to claim it's waterproof. Highly water resistant might be a better claim but that wont sell jackets.

Ive been using it for well over a decade, and they always said that water can be forced through under pressure. That's why the saloppettes have foam in the seat and knees.

Spin, I can sort of see where you're coming from, but for a day in the driving rain in the hills it keeps me drier than any gore tex ever has. For me the garment deserves the waterproof moniker more than gore tex, even if the fabric doesn't.

I though it was acknowledged and stated by Paramo that water comes through if you lean on stuff - it's certainly very well known - but in fairness to spin, I can't find anything on their website that says that. Perhaps they used to but don't anymore?

Druidh. I have a Large Velez Adventure Light in the shop for demo purposes if you want to give it a try. Email in profile.

Druidh, it really is as good as it sounds.

I was curious/sceptical until I got mine. It was an expensive gamble, but it has paid off so far.

I too 'run warm' (on the mtb I generally wear just a base layer and add a waterproof when colder -when many other riders are wearing multiple base and mid layers), but I've found that the Velez Adventure Light has been great. I'm not sure how it will be in hot weather, but my other jackets aren't too great in hot weather either.

I got sick of using goretex that simply couldn't deal with perspiration, leaving me soaking wet inside

That's why I have an eVent jacket. Fundamentally different to Goretex etc because the membrane has loads of tiny holes. It's WAY more breathable than Goretex in UK conditions - its breathability is unaffected by temperature and humidity.

notlocal, I'll borrow it, druidh is tiny 😉

THing is I run hot too, and tend to not hang about on rides...therefore if I have a waterproof on all I need underneath is one base layer.

I also equate weight with sweatiness.

I wouldn't wear it for riding; but then I don't bother with goretex or anything else like that while on the bike. For walking, hiking etc, it's great, but would need proper minus temps to use on a bike.

but you're a frikkin animal

No, a sweaty little fella!

its breathability is unaffected by temperature and humidity.

As it's a membrane I suspect it is affected by temperature and humidity. To cross the membrane the humidity outside would need to be lower than that inside. Unless osmosis has changed since I last did any science 😉

Must admit I've also never really 'got' Paramo gear - I can't get past seeing a mate with soaking legs and torso after a particularly soggy scramble up a hillside - his knees were presumably stretching the fabric as he took big steps up/knelt down and his (admittedly really heavy) pack did a nice job of forcing water through the top. Lots of people do love it however.

Edit - thread made me google it as I also recall it was a pain that needed reproofing all the time, some people actually recommend proofing it before every decent walk, the fox forks of outdoor jackets?

I'm a big Paramo fan, but only over the winter months as I to find it touch warm in the summer. I think what folk are forgetting, is that the main consideration about any clothing system is not ultimately whether it's "waterproof", but does it maintain an acceptable body temperature. Paramo and Buffalo are not waterproof in the conventional sense as you cannot test there hydrostatic heads (column of water on the fabric) but both work to maintain core temperature. As for re-proofing, Gore/eVent also needs to be cleaned and reproofed from time to time as if the outer "wets out" then it will no longer "breathe". Also eVent and Gore both use PTFE membranes, it's the treatment of the inner side of the fabric that differs, basically making eVent more breathable when new, but more prone to degradation in performance due to dirt and grime.

notlocal - a genuine "thanks very much" for the offer. However, I'm a medium in most manufacturers ranges.

Event more breathable than goretex as the membrane has loads of tiny holes??

Isn't the whole point of goretex the erm, tiny holes?

Anyone tried Furtech?

A chap who worked for Paramo set up a company which does a handful of products. The jackets are a bit more athletically cut but the same type of fabric. I was drawn to the closer fit and more mountain friendly features.

I gave it a bash a couple of years ago and after it eventually got sodden I was too cold to warm it back up again to dry it out (uni trip, slow pace with many stops). When fully soaked it takes ages to dry out. Despite this on the day of use I was more comfortable than my shell wearing chums.

I find in Scottish winter I need only merino with an eVent jacket on top. Any more and I'm cooking. Also I wonder about the pressure from a 70l bag squeezing water through the fabric. It seems to creep through the strap covered areas of my Rab jacket, which makes me think far more will come through a pile fabric jacket.

It's a shame, I can see the Furtech has a lot of potential but doesn't quite hit the spot.

I am amazed that waterproofing something so regularly is regarded as good. Surely we can do better than that.
To me, if it lets water from the outside through anything but designed holes it isn't waterproof. To suggest that trousers will leak if you sit down is crazy.
I regard the stuff as just another way of keeping you warm and wet.

I'm not sure I'd want Paramo trousers. If I wear waterproof trousers, I wear my fairly rugged Army Surplus Gore-tex trousers with the Velez Adventure light jacket.

ps. Each to their own. Feel free to buy whatever outdoor clothing you like!

I think the point with Paramo is that there are a lot of users - myself included - who have tried and been unimpressed by Gore-tex, eVent and countless others who then take a punt with Paramo and are very impressed. Sure, there will be some people who don't like it or some people who don't "get it", but it does stand on the merits of those who use and rate it rather than the figures and stats that a laboratory can churn out.

My first outing was a walk up to Kinder Downfall on a typically bleak and wet day . It keep me comfortable and not at all clammy on the walk up and kept me dryer - and importantly - more comfortable than any waterproof whilst up top when the rain really set in. I've since found it superb for cycling too.

If you can try before buying it is well worth having a test drive.

Ive been using it for well over a decade, and they always said that water can be forced through under pressure. That's why the saloppettes have foam in the seat and knees.

As per my post on P1, they were pretty useless in UK for 9 months and for summer Alpinism, just far far too warm. They spent most of their time hanging off me, completely unzipped. They possibly came into their own in the winter, a Scottish Blizzard perhaps. when pressed against something ie wearing a harness or sitting on a rock, moisture just soaked thru.

Anyone tried Furtech?

Yep, jacket and trousers.

Jacket is quite good. Thicker material than Paramo, so warmer. Closer cut, and even with XL it tight around my upper arm which then feels colder. My Paramo jackets are baggier, so I don't know if this helps with comfort by perhaps keeping some warm air in? Quality is pretty good but not as good as Paramo. Customer service from the chap was excellent.

Trousers I didn't get on with, poor cut or poor figure, take your pick!

Looking at the website and stock levels, I wonder if he's winding it down once he's sold everything?

Event more breathable than goretex as the membrane has loads of tiny holes??

Isn't the whole point of goretex the erm, tiny holes?

In theory, yes. Original goretex had tiny holes, but the stuff they made the membrane out of was so fragile they had to bond it to polyeurethane which doenst have holes. Instead it sucks the moisture through. This is why the inside of a goretex jacket is always damp - it needs to be, this dampness is the water waiting to be sucked through.

It depends on the temperature and humidity gradient.

As it's a membrane I suspect it is affected by temperature and humidity.

Not really, the holes mean that air can flow through the entire garment (try one, you notice it). It's no different in this respect from a Paramo garment which is breathable because of the tiny spaces in the weave I assume.

This is an interesting read, but they don't deal in humidity differential - just average humidity on both sides of the membrane. It's a study on how humidity in general affects breathability.

Looks like eVent kicks the crap out of Goretex.