Everyone seems to be focussing on the ‘constitutional crisis’ in a pretty negative fashion. But when people calm down a bit. IE: when we’ve had a couple of lynchings, do you reckon anything positive is going to come of it? I think this presents us, as a nation, with a bit of an opportunity to be seized

Here’s my perfect world wish list

A written constitution – a proper one like the Americans have got. Not some daft euro-bobbins

An increase in independent/fringe/minority parties in parliament. Ending the party system as we know it. Allowing MPs to vote independently on issues instead of just towing the party line like sheep.

A bit more focus on personal privacy/liberty. Now that MP’s have had their fiercly-guarded privacy invaded, perhaps they might think a bit more about ours. And the right of government to interfere in our lives. So maybe a re-think on ID cards, DNA database etc

Some chance! But I live in hope.

So what do you reckon we have the realistic opportunity to change for the better here? What would your suggestions be?

I thought you lived in Chorlton.

How about everyone who has an opinion actually gets off their Arris and goes to the polling station!
I run a pub, all I hear is how bad MP’s are and when asked “did you vote?” answer is almost invariably ” no, it’s not worth it!” Duh! If you use your vote it will count!

On a worthwhile change, put at the bottom of the voting form a box entitled ” NONE OF THE ABOVE” just so you can say “I care, I voted, but you lot are worthless!”

No multiple use of exclamation marks. You’re an imposter. What have you done with the real Binners?

I do Dave. We’ve not quite got our independent nation status just yet. Mores the pity

Acknowledge that we’ve already got enough rules and laws, so move to a system where its one law in one law out. Preferably more out.

Overall a move away from jobsworthiness to more personal responsibility.

All new legislation to work on the basis that if the public find it complicated to understand then it probably is too complicated.

One set of rules to appply to all

Justice needs to be proportionate, effective, cheap and quick. Without any one of these things its not just.

Tax cuts for cyclists

Get shot of the old order (including the Royals), who just happen to be at the pinnicle of the pyramid of money grubbing bastards in our current system of government.

and breathe……

Right to roam legislation, with specific reference to cyclist’s being given more access to offroad routes.

All new legislation to work on the basis that if the public find it complicated to understand then it probably is too complicated.

Not sure I agree with this. Just because its difficult to explain doesn’t mean its a bad thing.

(I dispute that our system is bent, or that there is a “constitutional crisis”. But anyway.)

For starters, in my perfect world, practically all people of voting age would go out and learn some basics about the constitution and elections. It is abundantly cleatr that a huge proportion of people have simply no clue. Which is a bad position from which to create an agenda for reform. They should familiarise themselves with what their MP actually does, with as much as they can stomach about policy. That would inevitably involve learning quite a lot about quite a lot of stuff.

They would vote in all elections. They would join a local party, or if none were to their taste they would establish one. They would take part in the selection of parliamentary candidates. They would write, frequently, to their MP on whatever issues they were engaged with.

We would see how that went, for quite a while, before deciding that we were going to change what is for the most part a fairly well-adjusted system.

We are (hopefully) coming to the end of a long period of ignorant political cynicism and disengagement. The ordering of politics and government is not a set of rules made up to govern other people’s behaviour. It is an agreement that we have amongst ourselves about how we choose our own government.
🙂

A return to a but of hand from teachers and the rozzers would be a good start. Ban anyone in public office from working for someone else at the same time, ban them from receiving gifts, ban their expenses and pay them all a flat rate. Let all the MP’s live in a block of flats in Southwark, it’s good enough for voters its good enough for them right?

An increase in independent/fringe/minority parties in parliament.

What – and leave the way open for loony parties to have a say in constitutional matters? And when the far left veto anything the far right vote for we will be at stalemate.

That could never work.

It is an agreement that we have amongst ourselves about how we choose our own government.

Oh how I wish this were true.

Not sure I agree with this. Just because its difficult to explain doesn’t mean its a bad thing.

If the people its aimed at don’t understand it how does that work? I didn’t say it was necessarily bad per se, just that if people don’t get it thats bad.

How about a limiot on the length of time anyone can be in Parliament? And how about an elected senior house to oversee Parliament, you know the sort of thing, somewhere where the Martin Bells and Ester Rantzens can oversee the feckers.

bigdummy i think you are suffering from the same problem some mps are

while most of the time most mps work bloody hard and arent ripping off the system

democracy is you placing your trust in someone to govern you
because mps are seen to have a bizare and overly generous way of paying themselves people do not trust them
adding this to pr, spin and never answering a question directly on newsnight, question time etc
has led to a broken system where people either vote for the bnp or in almost the MAJORITY of cases dont vote at all!!

Oh how I wish this were true.

I’m calling you on this, because it’s important. Unlike a significant proportion of the world, we have universal suffrage, free and fair elections, a free and diverse press, transparent legal apparatus for the conduct of elections and an independent judiciary. It is almost as near to true here and today as it has been anywhere ever.

If you don’t feel that it’s true, it’s possible that that’s because British government doesn’t give you what you want (a bizarre ragtag of cyclists’ rights and constitutional upheaval), but that isn’t quite the same point. 🙂

On a very simple note, can we just ask them to answer questions that we ask, rather than questions they want to answer.

Straight answers, with the odd “I don’t know” thrown in would be a good start on the way to trust.

On a very simple note, can we just ask them to answer questions that we ask, rather than questions they want to answer.

Straight answers, with the odd “I don’t know” thrown in would be a good start on the way to trust.

In theory I agree but to some extent we get what we deserve. The media dissects every delay, hesitation and re-interprets almost every permutation of what politicians say. They are then questioned on a hundred intepretations of what they said, another hundred on what they didnt say.
I am not defending the evading of questions just that in some circumstances I can understand why it appears simple but often is not.

Kimbers – I presume your graph shows general elections in the UK along the horizontal axis and percentage turnout of eligible voters along the vertical it doesn’t show on my screen). If that is correct then it doesn’t seem to show a majority of people not voting.

I agree that there is a trust difficulty at present. However, you accept yourself that a huge proportion of members work ahrd and don’t fiddle. So in this case, clearly, trust can be increased by knowledge. And if we combined knowledge with participation and taking responsibility for the election of a representative of the constituency, and then engaging with that representative, then that could only improve matters.

Don’t get me wrong, I do not think our government or democracy is perfect. But a huge number of people are now howling to overthrow it who have never bothered themselves with the business of keeping it functioning well. I do not trust these people’s judgement, instincts or bona fides and I’d much rather they calmed down and applied themselves to the business of holding their represenatives to account by the simple expedient of interesting themselves in the process. 🙂

It is an agreement that we have amongst ourselves about how we choose our own government.
I’m calling you on this, because it’s important. Unlike a significant proportion of the world, we have universal suffrage, free and fair elections, a free and diverse press, transparent legal apparatus for the conduct of elections and an independent judiciary. It is almost as near to true here and today as it has been anywhere ever.

My point is in the most general sense of the term government we don’t have the right to choose our system of government. Firstly at every election the majority of people don’t vote for the government in power. Secondly, the whole system operates around the old boy network. That is why the majority of MP’s are ex Oxbridge. That’s at the root of the whole scandal that we are going through at the moment, a system of priviliges based on a corrupt and discredited system, you know the one? The one where one couldn’t possibly challenge a gentlemans honour and his word is his bond etc etc. Thus my point that one set of rules applies to all. i.e. if an MP or anyones elses is word is his bond, why should that not equally apply to the chav on the street corner??? The evidence is clearly on the chav’s side of that equation as things stand!! However, lets all gorw up and acknowledge that we’re all human and it is human to err. So lets have a set of rules that encompasses that simple fact.

I really do hope that real and genuine change does come about through the publics anger at this. I do have my doubts though, if the status quo doesn’t get a right kicking first.

yeah i got carried away with the whole majority thing, still 40% not voting is pretty sad…
heres the webpage 1st one i googled but i assume its reasonably accurate link

the fiddling thing isnt the main cause of voter apathy/anger, id say that the evading the question thing has probably contributed massively and im pretty sure its because the media scrutinize to death any answer given

i also know that questions about large complex issues cant necessarily be answered with simple yes or nos or even that there may be a correct answer
when mps are primed with trite newspaper friendly soundbites, toeing the party line rather than offering a realistic, earnest response or godforbid a heartfelt opinion it stinks of gamesmanship and the desperate desire to hold on to/ gain power

But a huge number of people are now howling to overthrow it who have never bothered themselves with the business of keeping it functioning well.

Hear Hear!

We sat back for decades (I suppose while times were “good”, at least financially) and let them be. They constantly voted themselves nice little payrises and changed the rules to suit themselve wrt expenses and allowances. Now, when there’s a freedom of information request that finally drags it all out, we sit back, horrified that it got this bad. Yet, all along, most of us couldn’t be bothered ever engaging in the process. So what did we think was going to happen. As it happens, I’ve never written to my MP as I’ve never felt that exercised about anything in my constituency to do so. I have had e-mail conversations with Charles Kennedy when he was leader of the LibDems and I’m telling you, when you write to one of these people and they take time to reply (and a bloody good reply it was too…shut me up which is a feat) you feel engaged.

We just love sleaze in this country. We try to blame the media but in all honesty, it would have been a huge disappointment if all the MP’s had been shown to be claiming honest and fair expenses and allowances. If only real politik got us going so much – because that’s what matters. Look at the queues of frightened voters in Zimbabwe – literally risking their asses to go out and vote when they were given a chance. There are countless examples of countries where the same thing happens.

We should be bloody thankful for what we have here – don’t blame the system for disengaging the public, blame the public for just not bloody bothering any more.

The only major change I’d like to see is PR being brought in…I’m just not sure a significant enough proportion of the electorate would understand it though.

That is why the majority of MP’s are ex Oxbridge

G, while there is some truth in what you say, it isn’t the accurate sort of truth. 27% of MPs went to Oxbridge, 23% of the members of the government (in 2005)

Of course, it remains the case that Oxford and Cambridge are exceedingly good universities. It might be seen as a good thing that our government is drawn from alumni of such places. 🙂

With regard to changes in expenses, would it be too simplistic to pay MPs a salary commensurate with the importance with their positions in the first place and also provide some type of halls of residence where they can stay in London whilst they attend the commons ?

If the people its aimed at don’t understand it how does that work? I didn’t say it was necessarily bad per se, just that if people don’t get it thats bad.

But is that realistic? Governments all over the world are full of highly-trained, intelligent, and hardworking (*) experts in their field, people who spend all their working days thinking about crime, the economy, the environment, etc. etc. And they still get it wrong. What makes you think that more information would make us any more able to cast an “informed” vote?

Like lunge says, honestly admitting “I don’t know” every now and then might be a good start – although that would need to be accompanied by the press and the public not crying “U-turn” every time a politician changed his or her mind.

* And yes, there are also lots of lazy, stupid and workshy civil servants too.

On a worthwhile change, put at the bottom of the voting form a box entitled ” NONE OF THE ABOVE” just so you can say “I care, I voted, but you lot are worthless!”

This is a bloody stupid idea, quite simply because what do you do when ‘None of the above’ wins? who is going to run the country? or are you suggesting that we should move to an anarchic system?

I prefer to live by the adage that one shouldn’t discuss politics, religion and hardtail vs full-sus in polite company. Meanwhile, the sun’s still shining and the world is still turning so all appears to be well in the glass-half-full world of mountain biking.

I recall Bush junior got into office partly due to his “man in the street” persona. Recall the “who would you rather have a beer with campaign”
In essense Bush won this competition with the voters as a “down to earth guy”

This concerned me. When Doctors operate on our loved ones we want them to be qualified, intelligent and highly skilled. When we get on a plane we expect the same characteristics from the pilot.
The ability to joke whilst drinking beer is not high on my list of requirements from either of these people (although good on them if they can manage it)
Its funny that we see it as a necessary criteria for the most powerful man in the world with his finger on the button!

Thats related to the point I was making (badly) about the understanding of laws earlier.
Whilst I dont think they should be made overly esoteric I dont think we should pander to the man in the street who makes no effort to understand anything complex.

I’d like people to be able to vote on laws and policies. The people decided if they go through or not. A lot of people will not vote, but people who feel strongly for or against generally know about the laws or policies.

Let the British people decide on Iraq, ID cards and Euthanasia. I feel this will never happen as the MPs are way to scared to give power to the public.

Bring Thatcher back. Seriously. Someone with BALLS. None of the leftwing light0-fingered idiots.

I agree with Alwyn the general population get f all say in what is ‘good’ for us.

I have written to my MEP regarding something that was of interest to me and I received a well-written reply.

BUT

My local MP is a 100% ‘Blairite’. I checked her up on the web and she rarely if ever goes against the party line and never on anything that could be considered in any way important. I know that if I write to her regarding things which I definitely am against (or for), e.g. National ID cards, I know I will receive an identikit letter talking party b*llocks and avoiding the question. There is no point. For all she’s worth on national issues you may as well take her job away and give it to whosoever is the party leader at the time.

Hora – butt out if you can’t be bothered, this thread doesn’t need infantilism. 🙂

Adam – isn’t the point that you are logging with them what you feel strongly about? We complain when government “governs by opinion poll”. Ideally, we would tell them where we stood, so they could guage what was important to the people who elect them. The 10p tax rate was a case in point. The government was forced down on that one because too many MPs were worried about losing their seats over it. Apply that to ID cards, write to them, tell them that you will not be voting for anyone who supports ID cards. They will write bollocks back, but they will note a sufficient volume of correspondence on particular issues.

🙂

{quote]G, while there is some truth in what you say, it isn’t the accurate sort of truth. 27% of MPs went to Oxbridge, 23% of the members of the government (in 2005)[/quote]

Fair one.

However, the MMC determine a monopoly to be 25% of any given market, so it can still be reasonably argued that the old boy network has a monopoly and a strangle hold, so please excuse me my slip and lets try to stick with the main thrust.

Allied to that if you check it out you will find that Oxbridge do not operate open access policies, and accordingly you can very easily level the accusation that it is another throw back to our colonial past and the class system which excludes the “man on the clapham omnibus” getting a fair shake, which is my underlying point.

In essense Bush won this competition with the voters as a “down to earth guy”

To be fair I think you will find it had more to do with vote rigging and the fact his brother was the returning officer for Florida or something very similar.

Assuming we accept that, Oxford and Cambridge are still first rate universities. Their graduates are smart people. Is there really a problem in principle with a system in which a significant number of the people running the country come from the best universities?

Do you believe that the purpose of our system should be for you to be represented in parliament by people like you or by people who are able to govern in your interests (or of course both)? 🙂

Of course, what has really changed is the composition of the modern parliamentary Labour party, which used to contain a significant number of actual former labourers, and now contains very few (Prescott being the obvious exception).

Right.

Praps the single biggest problem this country suffers from is the Class System. Which needs dismantling. We simply cant have a society divided along class lines, if it is to be truly progressive. People choose to identify with a particular class, based on their economic circumstances, rather than see themselves as part of a ‘Society’.

So.

Monarchy- get rid. Serves no real benefit to our society; socially, economically or politically. All the arguments in favour of retaining the monarchy are unfounded- plenty of other nations exist perfectly ok without one. Some even better. The notion of someone with a ‘divine right’ to rule over others is both archaic and undemocratic. Time to dissolve the monarchy. No arguments. As for ‘but then we’d need a President’, well, we’ve more or less already got one, in all but name, really.

Class system- too many institutions which are divisive and perpetuate social stratification. Time to break apart the old Oxbridge elitism, and deliver a standard of excellence in education which is open to all. This must start at infant school level. No more badly run, under-resourced inner city slum schools, postcode lotteries and parents driving 20 miles to get their kids in the best schools. If children are born into a divided society, divided they will remain. No more private schools; all schools must offer the same excellent standards.

We must find ways to end the ‘glass ceilings’ that exist in our class-driven society. No more Old School Tie brigades. No more Jobs For the Boys.

Businesses to employ the majority of their workforce from the local area, wherever possible. No more of this bussing workers in, because the local scum aren’t good enough. You’re based in an area, you provide jobs to those that live their. Canary Wharf is a prime example of where class prejudice and a lack of belief in the abilities of all people exacerbates social and even cultural segregation.

Basically, an end to being able to have the best, simply because you earn more money. Each Human Being should be treated equally. A poor person is as deserving of a decent education, diet, home and healthcare, as a wealthy one.

Let’s level the playing fields, and then see if the ‘Chavs’ are any less deserving of opportunity than the Toffs. Our current system is so heavily weighted towards those with money, there is often little chance for others to get on level terms.

As for industry itself, well, much more regulation is needed, as we’ve seen. Banks should be seen as providing a service, not simply lining the pockets of shareholders. Who are mostly already minted, quite often.

Re-nationalisation of all essential services. Water, Gas, Leccy, telecoms, transport, the bloody lot. any profit made to be ploughed straight back into maintaining and improving the services, not into the pockets of shareholders (see above).

But how will we pay for all this? I hear you scream.

Not an easy task, I’ll admit, but not impossible. First, stop these bloody MPs leeching off the taxpayers, might be a start. And the revenue from lands formerly owned by the monarchy would bring in a few quid, as well as that saved from not having one.

Businesses to pay an ‘education tax’, which will help fund the education system, leading to better educated and more productive workers. You want people with IT skills? You pay towards their training, then; not let the individual taxpayers foot the bill all the time. And this does not mean having business-led ‘academies’, either. No sponsorship, just give us the **** cash.

Banning of (c)Rap music; it’s causing too much youth delinquency.

Enormous reduction of defence spending; other countries don’t have enormous armies, and so have more money to spend on their people. We don’t need such a large military force, for home defence. And most of our military spending goes on funding various spurious foreign resource-grabbing conflicts. Time that stopped. That would save billions of pounds a year.

A form of National Service for all young people. Not military based, but stuff like learning construction skills, team-building, helping support local services like street cleaning, recycling, care for the vulnerable and environmental projects. Too many yutes are bored, with nowt to do. Well, give ’em something to do, instead of having them sitting around playing Ecks Bocks, or terrorising neighbourhoods. Offer a system of rewards, for endeavour, like Go-Karting, Paint balling, foreign trips, mountain biking, laptops. ATM, the only kids getting this sort of stuff, other than the wealthier ones, are the bloody little ASBO bastards. We need to teach our kids that bad behaviour does not bring rewards like respect and iPods.

Ah, a Rude Britain. I can see it now; the envy of the World.

A vote for the Rude Party is a vote for all of our futures.

I am aware this manifesto may need a little more thought applied to it.
I’m going to have a little lie down, now.

Ah, a Rude Britain. I can see it now; the envy of the World.

An answer I can give for that is written in the Bible, Gospel of John, Chapter 11, Verse 35.

Rudeboy. I disagree with almost every point of your manifesto, either because I don’t recognise the world that you live in, or because you are clearly a raging commie struggling against the temptations of totalitarianism who is determined to bring civilisation as we know it to the edge of madness and ruin. 😉

But I admire the effort and commitment that has gone into producing it and am glad that you have a vote. 🙂

BigDummy; ‘cos of course, the current system is working so wonderfully…

Radical, I know. But needs must. Feel free to explain, point for point, why you don’t agree, and put forward your own theories/ideas. I’d be inertested to see what you think.

As for the ‘raging commie’ bit; surely you can work a bit harder on that one?

See, thing is, if you actually think about it, you’ll see that I am right. On every single point.

And if you don’t, you’re a greedy capitalist fascist. Simple, really. 😀

And El-Bent (good to see you paid attention in Sunday School); Jesus did indeed weep; for he saw the beautiful and incontrovertible truth, in RudeBoy’s Meisterplan…

LOL at El Bent

I haven’t read any of this thread and sadly/thankfully don’t intend to.

But for some inexplicable reason, this caught my eye :

“ Canary Wharf is a prime example of where class prejudice and a lack of belief in the abilities of all people exacerbates social and even cultural segregation.“

What the **** you on about RudeBoy ? 😯

Canary Wharf is actually a prime example of just what the working-class can achieve.

It is indeed a stunning ‘monument’ to what the proletariat can accomplish through it’s sacrifices of blood, sweat, and tears.

How dare you denigrate the achievements of the toiling classes ?