Tie your belayer on. Job done.

what he said. you can’t go wrong that way and this has the added bonus of having your partner already tied in!

Check, Check and check again. a lot of sport climbing accidents occur when rethreading the belay owing to confusion between climber and belayer. make sure you and your partner understand each other by keeping communication simple like:
‘Take in’, ‘Slack’, ‘On belay’, ‘Off belay’, ‘Safe’ etc

I was under the impression that its raison d’etre was to reduce shock in the system during a fall, and require less strength to lock off. Is that not the case?

Quite the opposite. they can increase the loading on the system due to their lack of dynamism (same applies to other autolocking devices)

ant- when you say tie a knot in the belayers side of the rope would you do a rough measure of rope length in your hands to make sure it was long enough for the climb but short enough to be effective when tying the not if the belayer failed to act?

just tie it a couple of feet from the end. Its only to stop the end going through the gri gri if the height of the route is more than half your rope length. (some guides have the route length printed in them, but not all, and beware, some of the rockfax guides (popular with us lot as they are in english) have incorrect route lenghts in them.

Also note that in europe, 60m ropes are often assumed as standard, and in some areas 70, or 80m ropes are now being used a lot. Usually though, for routes requiring a 70 or 80m rope, there will be an intermediate lower off so you can still do the route on a 60m rope, you just have to lower off twice. But definately get a 60m rope at least. If you dont have a rope yet, and are keen on sport climbing, i’d probably get a 70m anyway as new routes are often upto 35m now (Kalymnos especially)

So.. knot in end
check route length
60m rope minimum these days
ideally get a 70, especially if you ever want to go to kalymnos. And you will want to go to Kalymnos!!!!

The best advice i can give you you are starting out climbing is to find someone to climb with how has a reasonable amount of experience, and learn from them.

Everyone i’ve climbed with is very happy to share there experiance, and they’ll keep an eye on you to prevent you doing something stupid.

sound advice I think mate, indoor always sounds best to practise but there isnt one close – the rock im thinking of doing is basically an indoor wall but outside and natural in the middle of town (as far as I’ve heard).

oh and its not a holiday – lucky me has moved here 🙂

Quite the opposite. they can increase the loading on the system due to their lack of dynamism

Grigri yes, SRC no. It’s designed to slip a bit.

I know that none of the above solutions are perfect but they are better imo than something that is 100% useless if a tiny easy mistake is made. That is what I am getting at.

However people don’t take kindly to you asking if they’ll use your belay device instead of theirs. They assure you that you’ll be fine then proceed to belay you badly 🙁

get a bail ‘biner or quick link to back off from a hanger

http://www.decathlon.co.uk/EN/quick-link-7mm-17410658/

or learn the magic sling technique to do it leaving nothing at all behind, if you are within 1/3 rope length of the ground.

stay safe, and have fun.

Oh and I suggest a helmet when outdoors. It’s personal choice (before TJ comes to the thread) but ‘draws get dropped, rocks get dislodged etc…and will hurt if you get struck.

people don’t take kindly to you asking if they’ll use your belay device instead of theirs.

Understandable; I’d rather belay with kit that a) I’m familiar with and b) I know the history of.

Questioning your belayer’s choice of gear implies that you don’t trust them; if you don’t trust them, don’t climb with them.

I don’t trust anyone to be alert and correct 100% of the time, and that includes me. And then there are also factors outside of our control.

We-ell, yes, that’s sensible. But imposing your personal choice of equipment on someone isn’t going to change that any.

I never actually tried that beyond discussing it with a couple of close mates, because I knew what reception I’d get.

TBH,

All things being equal, if your belay partner is incapacitated, you’re pretty screwed regardless of kit. I’m not sure that the solution you’re suggesting brings much to the table other than a false sense of security. If you gave, say, a Reverso to someone who’d never seen one before, you’d be unlikely to be any better off.

I am somewhat surprised that there are not more reports of people being dropped for one reason or another. I’d google some if it wasn’t so late.

Although if there was say a rockfall, and my partner was clobbered and I was knocked off, I’d rather be dangling helplessly than splatted on the floor.

The most important part of the belaying system is the belayer, and all of the ‘failsafe’ methods are basically there for added convenience, not safety. The manufacturers still recommend belaying in the ‘usual’ way and whatnot.

If I came across a potential climbing partner who didn’t have the confidence in their own ability to use a non auto-locking belay device (or someone to supervise them) then I just wouldn’t waste my time climbing with them.

and all of the ‘failsafe’ methods are basically there for added convenience, not safety

What’s that mean?

I am not advocating replacing the traditional techniques. I’m saying that given experienced belayers, a DEGREE of automatic safety (ie in some types of fall) in addition to that provided by an attentive belayer provides another level of security just in case.

I’ve done most of my belaying with an ATC, and I’ve stopped falls too, but the system is NOT fail-safe. This is not ideal, it’s a simple as that.

What we need, in an ideal world, is some sort of dead man’s handle. I’m not sure that such a thing actually exists in a form that doesn’t bring further risks or inconveniences.

Yep. Inconvenience isn’t an issue for me though, within reason. After all the rope itself is a pretty drastic inconvenience isn’t it? 🙂

EDIT: thinking about it.. how about an electronically controlled pulley clipped to say your leg that goes around the slack rope; It’s far enough away so you can belay as normal – the climber wears a little sensor that detects when he’s fallen and sends a signal to the pulley to lock up, which pulls the rope and locks the belay device……?

When you can find something that works with double ropes and pays out quickly while also being able to hold a fall then you might be onto a winner… working with frozen ropes would also be a winner too please… :o)

Until then it’ll be bog standard belay devices I’m afraid.

Also, as pointed out above, while not being such an issue with sport climbing, in trad climbing the amount of ‘slip’ within the whole system means that the shock loading on the gear is a lot lower than when using any of the auto-locking devices.

I’m liking the idea of a back-up device that mimics the belayer’s hand only in the event of it not being available but stays out of the way otherwise. The advantage of an electronic system too would be that if your belayer was knocked out by a rockfall, say, you could remotely lower yourself down.

And just how many sports crags actually suffer from rockfalls?

I’m not sure you’re going to want to use anything like that when you are half-way up a bolted alpine route, or anywhere ever on a trad route where you might actually experience them…

And just how many sports crags actually suffer from rockfalls?

Trad climbers also use belay devices… and the system would be automatic, you would not have to do anything, and it’d be easily disable-able whenever you wanted.

I’m not sure you’re going to want to use anything like that when you are half-way up a bolted alpine route,

I’d wager that alpine routes and electronic devices wouldn’t be a great mix anyway.

No?

Back to quick draws:

Get a variety of legths from the shortest to half a metre. Keeping the rope straight cuts friction and means you’ll still be able to move up when you’ve run out most of the rope. Especially important in Spain where the logic of bolt placement defies me.

No?

‘s hypothetical anyway, but whatever solution it was would have to work reliably in extreme temperatures. Last thing you’ve want is a servo or something to freeze solid. I’m guessing of course, but I’d imagine that such a thing might be prohibitively expensive.

And to Molgrips:

Getting back down if your belayer dies, is knocked out, or finally gets sick of your insults and naffs off is no problem; you just tie off the rope on a bolt (or gear if you’re unbolted) and ab’ back down.

It’s an interesting challenge, but there’s no point working on it. It’d never sell, as most climbers seem to think that there’s no issue…

50% failsafe

Que? 😯

Failsafe in 50% of situations I meant.

If you want a system where you have to be attentive to let the rope run freely, a bog standard belay plate with a prussik loop in your hand on the trailing edge works quite well and serves as a good, cheap and pretty effective failsafe. My climbing apprenticeship was long before Gri Gris and the like and this seemed to work well. Hardly ever used it for belaying tho’, just for ab’ing. Never ever used a Gri Gri and – perhaps irrationally – don’t like the look of them.

I like Grigris, makes paying out very very easy. And I suspect this is why they get used for newbies.

Prussic loop – fiddly. Maybe one of those petzl thingies that you can use for abbing.. but you need to keep one hand on.. perhaps a self-belay device attached on the climber side of your ATC would work nicely in the style of the prussic loop… hmm…

most climbers seem to think that there’s no issue…

That’s a little disingenuous. I don’t believe that most climbers think there’s “no” issue, so much as thinking that it’s a fairly small issue in the grand scheme of things. We’re back to acceptable risk again. Eg, it’d be safer but I wouldn’t wear a full-face helmet and body armour for a cycle down the canal towpath.

I take your point, and anything that can improve safety without badly compromising everything else is of course a good idea. I’m just not convinced that it’s a particularly common issue.

Prussic loop – fiddly.

I mentioned this a while back as a suggestion. Not sure how well it’d work though because yes, it’s fiddly, and faced with a free-running rope I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?

For me it was all about travelling light. I preferred using a loop of 6mm/7mm cord as my failsafe for ab’ing than have to carry another device with me. Much more difficult to pay out, but then my reasoning is that the easier it pays out the harder it is to stop 😆

I don’t climb much now, but I don’t remember thinking stich plates (however you spell it) were a particular pain to use, but then I served my apprenticeship with my Dad who had vast amounts of knowledge, experience and skill when it came to climbing. Some of it rubbed off on me

I for one don’t and never will want anything more complicated than an ATC.
Even simple things like ‘biners (some times not even screw gates) stop working properly in alpine and winter environments.

The best failsafe mechanism: don’t fall off.

As far as abseiling goes, a prussic is very reliable, although I often don’t bother with that unless there is noticeable rock/ice fall. Just getting the hell out of there fast is usually a big safety factor.

I wonder if the cord would melt before it grabbed?

Pretty much as soon as you let go of the prussik with your main belaying hand, the system locks up. Maybe it doesn’t work as well with the newer belay plates but with a stich plate it was very effective. Of course you need to make sure you put enough loops in the prussik and it does take a bit of skill, so not for newbies. Cheap, light and effective tho’

it really makes sod all difference what people use as long as:

-Its a recognised device
-The belayer knows how to use it correctly and has experience with it
-The climber is happy being belayed by that belayer on it.

Personally i always use a grigri for sport climbing or at the wall as i find it a bit more ‘relaxing’ to use for a full day of climbing, and its much better than a standard plate type device if the climber is working a route and having lots of rests.
For trad i’ll use an ATC XP as i tend to climb on skinny doubles.

Theres always going to be climbers arguing the pro’s and cons of each device, but as long as both partners are happy with the set up theres no point worrying / arguing about it.

Same goes for abbing, ive abbed on grigris and ATC’s, as long as you have tried the device in a controlled situation and know how it feeds through on the ab theres no problem. I nearly always back up with a prussic though as it means you can take you hands off to sort out rope tangles, and it makes things feel less intimidating on free hanging abs (well to me it does)

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!

All thats missing is a few links to wikipedia and some photos of someone on a chossy trad route somewhere.

^^

Yeah i expect the OP has probably long gone from this thread, probably out doing something much more constructive like riding or actually climbing

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing and everyone else goes off on a points scoring tangent about something else!

Typical STW, someone asks about one thing, an interesting discussion develops, and then someone comes along and accuses everyone else of ‘point scoring’. (-:

(Incidentally, “ianv” on a climbing thread? 😯

*Does the “we’re not worthy” scene from Wayne’s World*)