Think that was more representative of the course than the bike tbh. Most of the bigger bike companies have a dh bike and push it strongly, there’ll be a bit of the old “race on sunday, buy on monday” involved with that but I don’t think many worry if it’s a worthwhile market.

With Orange, personally I suspect it’s just their limited capacity at work, they can’t make enough Fives so they’re focusing on the most popular models. It doesn’t have to be hard to sell a 322 or Patriot, just harder than a Five.

Well it must be fairly hard to sell, otherwise they’d use the demand for the 5 to expand.

Can’t actualy remember the last time I saw a new patriot in the flesh, they used to be common in the Peaks but everyones migrated to fives since the 6.6

Think that was more representative of the course than the bike tbh

I’m sure that’s what the makers of downhill bikes will want us all to believe. However, Graves himself had the following to say:

It seems to be the people who have never seen the course who have the most negative things to say about it. In person, it was certainly far rougher and more of a “real DH track” than it looks from some helmet cam run that was put on the Internet. Throw in multiple 45-60ft jumps, and there was plenty to make it a worthy World Championship DH track.

Of course he’s bound to say that 🙂 but the point is that the marketing machine is pushing hard against the boundaries of what “one-bike-to-rule-them-all” can do, which will impact on downhill bikes as much as it does on race-bred XC machines.

funny how he missed out mentioning the long, flat pedal in the middle where the SB was always going to make up a bucket load of time. When he’ll rocks up to Val Di Sole and gets 3rd on the SB, then I’ll believe.

I don’t buy the “not proper dh” thing but I don’t think many people would claim it was a typical dh course. Like Legend says, if he takes it to a wider variety of tracks and performs, then it’ll be interesting but I can’t see it.

With Orange, personally I suspect it’s just their limited capacity at work, they can’t make enough Fives so they’re focusing on the most popular models. It doesn’t have to be hard to sell a 322 or Patriot, just harder than a Five.

Think you’re right Northwind, sell what makes the most money! As for expanding, why take the risk when the market can turn on itself so quickly and you’re obviously doing alright as it is. MTB’s seem to be standing still at best while road bikes are on the up. They know the market better then us so the direction they take says a lot.

legend, from the same Graves’ blog (link):

The track was more or less the same as it was last year with only a few minor changes at the bottom and a whole lot more jumps on the pedaling section in the middle (to reduce the pedaling). I wasn’t sure how the track changes would fit the smaller bike, as I needed the pedaling to make the most of the smaller bike’s strengths. But, I would also carry better speed through the jumps and it would probably even out.

It doesn’t detract from my point which is that – as bike purchasers – we like to see evidence of these bold marketing claims and here it is. I no more expect Graves to win VdS on an SB66 than I expect Nino Schurter to win a XC race on a Genius LT, but you can’t deny that the boundaries in which these super bikes are performing are getting wider. If 99% of bike buyers can have their needs served well by one Holy Grail bike, that’s less money to spend on the more specialist bikes.

Loathe as I am to make this a wheel size thread, but we all know that’s why the bike companies needed the new next best thing, since the last best thing was actually more than good enough for most of us.

It seems to be the people who have never seen the course who have the most negative things to say about it. In person, it was certainly far rougher and more of a “real DH track” than it looks from some helmet cam run that was put on the Internet. Throw in multiple 45-60ft jumps, and there was plenty to make it a worthy World Championship DH track.

Funny that he chose to ride a 303 at fort bill though……

Funny that he chose to ride a 303 at fort bill though……

No. It’s not. He chose what he thought was the right bike for the job at Fort Bill much like he did in South Africa. The reference to PMB is that an “all-mountain” bike is now good enough for a professional downhiller to get third place in a World Championship DOWNHILL race. I wouldn’t have thought that a year ago.

I’m obviously doing a very poor job at making my point and now the thread’s gone off at a tangent. Forget I said anything and I’ll tiptoe back out of this 😆

No. It’s not.He chose what he thought was the right bike for the job at Fort Bill much like he did in South Africa.

Pretty much exactly what I’m saying. He chose the big bike for the big course, and the smaller bike for the smaller course.
He wouldn’t stand a snowballs chance in hell against stevie, Gee, Greg etc on their big bikes at Fort Bill, Leogang etc.

OK, so we’re both making completely different points 😆 Typical STW thread 😀

Graves had a set of 180s on his 66 and running the same stroke shock as as the Patriot didn’t he?

Graves had a set of 180s on his 66 and running the same stroke shock as as the Patriot didn’t he?

It wasn’t a stock bike; the link I put up has the changes. It was his enduro bike and, since enduro is the industry’s latest darling, it’s surprises me not one bit that enduro bikes are taking a chunk of the downhill market.

I hope you’re satisfied now Jared Graves.

You’ve singlehandedly killed off Orange’s DH and Freeride bikes.

Shame on you.

Lol

You’ve singlehandedly killed off Orange’s DH and Freeride bikes.

Yeh Graves, In Halifax bairns are starving now.

DH isn’t dead. Orange simply never spent any bloody money developing replacing their DH offering.

GREAT frames. I love my Patriot but when other companies have the DW, VP etc etc yet Orange still want the same cash for c15yrs old tech…

Customers will gradually drift away especially younger ones coming through who wont have seen/heard of the 222 etc pedigree.

Also I doubt Orange are a small or poor company. What amazes me is virtually **** all r&d spend- pedalling the same old design for 2013 competitors pricing.

Im guessing when the owner retires/sells up the brand will sadly close. Harsh?

It’s a shame about the oranges. It wasn’t so many years ago you could pitch up to an SDA and see loads of folk on 224’s.

You don’t see that now, but the total number of riders trying to enter SDA’s has dropped through the floor as well as the number of guys on oranges. I would say orange ditching the dh bikes is indicative of a decline in the popularity of UK dh racing as well as a decline in popularity of orange dh bikes.

^

I dont know the answer to this but how many Orange bikes do you tend to see at UK/European Enduro events?

Also I doubt Orange are a small or poor company. What amazes me is virtually **** all r&d spend- pedalling the same old design for 2013 competitors pricing.

The thing is that they are a small company, despite their disproportionately large UK presence.

They have a design that works for them and it evolves with time. To say it’s the same old design probably isn’t fair. There are plenty of other brands selling what are effectively single pivot designs too.

Customers will gradually drift away especially younger ones coming through who wont have seen/heard of the 222 etc pedigree.

DH pedigree only matters if you’re interested in DH, and there are a lot of people who aren’t, and, indeed, who aren’t interested in MTB racing of any flavour.

No one seen the 160mm 29er in mbr then. Obviouslt some r&d going on there.
Would be interested if they made it with a steeper seat tube.

Not a big company..

They had alot more distributors and Im sure a US one?

Apart from the Blood (why dropped?!)

Why no other models? (ST count?)

when other companies have the DW, VP etc etc yet Orange still want the same cash for c15yrs old tech…

Customers will gradually drift away especially younger ones coming through who wont have seen/heard of the 222 etc pedigree.

Also I doubt Orange are a small or poor company. What amazes me is virtually **** all r&d spend- pedalling the same old design for 2013 competitors pricing.

Orange have overcome the “single pivot is old tech” moaners in recent years, so I think that’s a red herring.

Where you do have a point is that they’ve evolved into a middle-aged man’s brand, hence why they now offer a CX bike but no DH rig.

The yoof into DH seem to be riding Konas, Saracens, Sessions, Voltages etc from my observation.

I dont know the answer to this but how many Orange bikes do you tend to see at UK/European Enduro events?

I know that at Finale last year I saw 3 (out of 550 riders) – one was James Shirley (Dude of Hazzard rider – sponsored by them), one was one of the Continental/Orange team, and one was bizarrely a dude from Rome. Very much a UK focused brand.

As has been said, a good AM (or dare I say it on here) Enduro bike will very often be faster on a UK DH course, so it’s a much more relevant bike and makes more financial sense for Orange to consolidate the range to less models that are more usable to more people.

hora – Member

Apart from the Blood (why dropped?!)

No bugger bought it. Probably too far from the normal Orange pattern to appeal to the fanboys, and nobody really seemed to know what it was for (also, launching it with 83mm cranks was probably kind of idiotic). And I reckon by the time people got their heads round a heavy, strong-like-ox trailbike, they were turning up their noses at straight steerers and 67 degree head angles, it didn’t look on paper like the pocket downhill bike it could be. So everyone bought an Alpine.

hora – Member

I dont know the answer to this but how many Orange bikes do you tend to see at UK/European Enduro events?

At the Dudes enduro I was slightly worried I might get disqualified for not being on a Five or an Alpine. It was downright oppressive 🙂

Orange R&D… All opinion, but. They put tons of work and testing into the 224 replacement. They identified the key problems (the suspension being a bit shit, falling rate ffs, and the front triangle was butt ugly, and its Ron Jeremy-like attitude for cracks) and got into various ways to fix it. But, they seemed to do it in a pretty haphazard way, making bikes people didn’t like the look/idea of that went off their core brand image a bit, and firing out prototype after prototype that by and large exploded. Like they got into metalwork without really planning things. There’s better ways to design a frame than to make one and see if it snaps, especially when all that testing is so public.

Anyway, by the end of all that process, people got a bit jaded with it, they’d seen enough variations and failures to think “They just don’t know what they’re doing”, the already undeserved bombproof reputation was fading… and frankly the replacement project started several years too late anyway, then took forever. And then after all that they launched a bike that is more or less a 224 Evo Evo, which is a bit like saying 222 Evo Evo Evo Evo.

Oh- also, the 73/135 setup is a barrier to buying for people with an existing dh frame, your rear wheel and cranks won’t fit. Not a massive thing but when the frame’s already so expensive it can’t help. (mine is built with my old trailbike wheels, but that’s weird)

Irony being, it’s a really good bike for everyday dobbers. It might not be fast- but I don’t care about top speed, every downhill bike is faster than me. Even my Evo with its flaws is a really simple bike to ride, unlike a lot of dh bikes which need a lot more head recalibration to get used to. But most people want to buy a race bike even if they’ll never race it, or never race it fast.

Anyway, that’s my essay. Post-ride waffle!

Im guessing when the owner retires/sells up the brand will sadly close. Harsh?

Maybe the owner has sold up already? DH bikes might be too niche

On the off chance anyone wants a cheap Patriot frame, Bike active have some for £995

Cor

Apparently Orange have relented, and are keeping the 322 frame in the range.