Diesels are far more unreliable due to their design. The EGR valve is a common source of problems. Diesels burn dirty and they circulate the sooty exhaust gas back into the engine clogging the inlet manifold decreasing power (older diesels didn’t have an EGR). Worse, they gradually sieze up and stick, potentially damaging swirl flaps which can stick or worse, get injested into the engine (this company make blanking plates http://www.swirlflaps.co.uk/ its such a commob problem on some BMWs). Another big problem is the dual mass flywheel which can fail. Then you’ve got failing turbos as well.. the list goes on, and these are all BIG problems that cost a lot to fix.

Honestjohn no longer reccomends diesels due to these expensive failures.

Oh dear, someone really is talking a lot of moo cows dung aren’t they?

That’s just for YOU and YOUR car. For me, when we bought our current car, it was opposite. So kiss my shiny metal ass. 😛

If you don’t know how to drive it.

I can drive or ride anything you like, however you want it driven:
Slow, fast, smooth, ragged, on or off road, 10kg to 32,000kg, round bends, off road, on either side of the road, in a straight line, sideways, understeer, oversteer, Wombling free, the Wombles of Wimbledon….

There’s half a chance I’ve forgotten about more vehicles than you’ve ever driven, or even sat in.
And I still can’t stand diesel engines in cars. I just don’t like them. IMO diesels are utter cack. THE only reason I’d ever buy one would be to save money, and it would have to be a fair amount at that. And the facs are, that if you’re not doing enough miles, you’ll never make it pay.

My mother in law has a lovely VW Eos. It’s totally RUINED by the 2 litre diesel engine that sits in the front of it. It’s horrible. (You have a Passat, do you not? I think it’s the same engine, the 140bhp TDi)

I’m a petrolhead. Not a dieselhead. And I make no apologies for that.

And on top of all that, it’s like shooting fish in a barrel poking fun at them on threads like this….. 🙂

Diesels are far more unreliable due to their design. The EGR valve is a common source of problems. Diesels burn dirty and they circulate the sooty exhaust gas back into the engine clogging the inlet manifold decreasing power (older diesels didn’t have an EGR). Worse, they gradually sieze up and stick, potentially damaging swirl flaps which can stick or worse, get injested into the engine (this company make blanking plates http://www.swirlflaps.co.uk/ its such a commob problem on some BMWs). Another big problem is the dual mass flywheel which can fail. Then you’ve got failing turbos as well.. the list goes on, and these are all BIG problems that cost a lot to fix.

Honestjohn no longer reccomends diesels due to these expensive failures.

Just reading this and wondering, the high milers you see are Diesel not petrol. More and more small petrol engines are getting turbos to improve performance.

So how much is a real issue and how much a theoretical issue?

As for the torque, that makes them go faster. My 150bhp diesel Astra got 20k from it’s front tyres with a lot of torque. My Golf with half the torque ate tyres every 12k miles with less weight

I can easily tell a tale of a diesel Audi getting through tyres in 10K and an old car of mine still on 2 out of the 4 OE tyres at 54,000 miles if you like?

Yes it’s cheaper – by a lot. My 150bhp Astra was group 11. My 150bhp Golf GTi was group 15. My 335d is grp 18, a 335i is grp 20

Means nowt: Different people get different prices on the same car. Insurance group itself is no reliable indication of cost.

No they are not. A lot of diesels are much more robust that their petrol equivalents

And by the same argument, a lot are NOT. (Ford injector problem anyone?) I’ll say again, becasue I’m right, if a diesel breaks down, there’s a good chance it’s going to cost a fair bit more than a petrol car

You usually pay a bit more BECAUSE THEY ARE IN MUCH HIGHER DEMAND. Resale value therefore is higher. You also can’t spell “lose” or “depreciation.”

Thanks for the tips on the spelling. That obviously makes me wrong I take it? 🙄
So, you pay more, the resale value will be more, but the actual amount you loose, the difference between the two, will also be more. Becasue there’s more to loose in the first place. And if its a new car, may the Lord have mercy on you soul!

PS – Don’t treat me like a twunt, Surf Mat. Because I’m not.

Just reading this and wondering, the high milers you see are Diesel not petrol

Reliability and longevity are 2 different things 🙂 It’ll carry on forever if you keep replacing bits!
So, whos to say the diesel hasn’t had virtually every component replaced along the way, at a greater cost than a petrol car?

That said, I’ve known of a couple of petrol cars (Mk 2 Golf, late model Cavalier) with around 250k on the clock, and another (Mk 1 Golf) where my mate lost count after 145k when the milometer packed up…. 🙂

My old man had a cracking big volvo estate 2 litre petrol (850 highlander I think) which he had over 300k on. Never needed a rebuild or clutch etc. Just regurarly serviced and changed brakes, tyres, exhaust when needed etc.

Would still be going strong but for the fact he parked it in a field last winter due to the icy roads. After clearing a ditch dukes of hazard style lol.

It was so good he bought anothter. Bigger petrol engine this time – it’s better than a truck and he loves it, ideal load lugger and towing machine for his hobbies and business too.

I have owned both VRs models:

The petrol got around 32 mpg driven normally

The current CR diesel gets around 45 driven normally

The diesel is more a more relaxed drive but the petrol had a FAR superior engine. Deffo get the petrol for the mileage you are doing and if you want a better drivers car.

I can easily tell a tale of a diesel Audi getting through tyres in 10K

I get normal mileage out of tyres on a diesel, because I drive it the same speed as I would a petrol. That is, ‘relaxed’.

(Mk 1 Golf) where my mate lost count after 145k when the milometer packed up…

See, that’s crappy petrol reliability in action! 😉

45mpg vs 32mpg is a 40% improvement. That’s pretty significant.

Diesels take ages to warm up

Simply not true! It takes a few minutes.

Modern Diesels in cars like this aren’t noisy. Infact you would be hard pressed to hear much difference once you get moving. It’s been like this for the good brands for twenty years nearly.

Saw another couple of misguided comments about premature tyre wear.

The benefit of a diesel over a petrol is the tons of torque you have on tap if you should need it. So you can drive without lots of gear changes and pistons popping out of the bonnet when you need to get a move on, but you don’t have to do this all the time. If you learn to use this power sensitively, you will get extended tyre life (I got 39k out of my first set of tyres on my 1.9Tdi 130Bhp).

Extended high speed driving eats rubber too, so keep you speed down and stay off motorways – can only be good for road safety, the environment, your wallet and your health!

Some people simply aren’t at one with their machine. I know two people who drive at what people would regard as a pretty normal pace. One has a diesel the other has a petrol. They get through tyres, brakes and fuel like there’s no tomorrow, but for no tangible benefit whatsoever! In either one of these cars, when I reset the fuel computer, I can drive over similar terrain, but getting at least 30% more miles to the gallon. I’m certainly not a slow driver, infact i find people generally dither and faff for no apparent reason. Most frustrating, so where ever possible, I opt to drive when others aren’t.

An automatic gearbox for these people would mitigate this, assuming it was a variomatic. I’d hazard a guess that at least 80% of drivers are wasting 25% of the fuel they buy. Imagine how much cheaper fuel would be if these drivers learned to drive efficiently, but i digress.

I find myself thinking about paying out for fuel for any given significant individual journey and when the prospect of going off anywhere arises, it’s always a big plus knowing you aren’t going to be pumping uneccessary additional CO, CO2 into the atmosphere, but for me it’s principally about hanging on to my cash. I have a friend who has a gas guzzler and he never goes anywhere in it and always complains about the cost (e.g. £280 v my £75 for a return trip to the Lake District).

Buy the diesel, it is more expensive to buy, but you’ll get a large proportion of that back (maybe more). The residual of a petrol could spectacularly fall out of bed, thus costing you a lot more than you bargained for. Conversely, diesels hold their value because of the obvious benefits, one of which would be the lower road fund licence.

Some people simply aren’t at one with their machine.

True dat. I had a lift with a bloke at work, and he was simply stamping on (and off) all three pedals. I felt sick within a mile.

No wonder people complain that this car or that isn’t as economical as advertised.

So you can drive without lots of gear changes and pistons popping out of the bonnet when you need to get a move on

With my own car I can stick it in 5th and go from 15mph to the wrong side of 150mph, it’s petrol powered.

True dat. I had a lift with a bloke at work, and he was simply stamping on (and off) all three pedals. I felt sick within a mile.

Jerky driving stresses everyone out, even the driver! If you took his blood pressure before and after driving, even when he thought he felt calm, you would see some shocking results.

The trick is to be gentle with the controls and have a smooth action. A lot of racing drivers will tell you this and it doesn’t slow them down does it?

Rough treatment of the controls will wear everything out prematurely and be likely to break something.

I have always been kind on the controls, but have slowed down a lot in recent years. Diesels brought this about and when I switched from a company car. I’m almost on the 1 Million mile mark, so I think I know what i’m talking about.

With my own car I can stick it in 5th and go from 15mph to the wrong side of 150mph, it’s petrol powered.

Oh dear!

With my own car I can stick it in 5th and go from 15mph to the wrong side of 150mph, it’s petrol powered.

That means nothing. How long it takes is the issue.

Unless you’ve got a 6 or 8 cyl petrol, or a turbo mapped to low revs, you will get much more shove at 1,500rpm from a diesel than a petrol I reckon.

We are talking typical every day cars here btw not some snazzy Beamer etc.

With my own car I can stick it in 5th and go from 15mph to the wrong side of 150mph, it’s petrol powered.

Blimey – what car is that if you don’t mind me asking?? Most cars I have ever been in will stall below about 20mph in 5th as the gearing drops the engine revs too low.

I wouldn’t call it snazzy. It has 6 cylinders though.

I was curious one day so carried out the experiment – it got there quick enough.

Oh, and I also hate the drivers who use the pedals like digital on/off switches. Terrible control.

6cyl is snazzy in my book.

Not exactly a basic family motor is it?

I could time my car from 30-100mph in 6th if you like?

it’s a great family motor. That’s why I bought it – I have 3 kids. Plus I wanted something with a bit of go.

A sleeper if you will. Definitely not snazzy though.

It’s well known that v6s have more torque. They are generally considered something of a premium option though, due to initial purchase cost and running costs.

Unlike a 4cl TDi.

My running costs are not high. In fact for the same car in oil burner format I’m not too far away from them mpg wise and my servicing costs less. Due to a number of factors. How I drive it, the weight of the car, I look after mine and alays service it, I keep it running well.

It’s a nice honest car.

My running costs are not high. In fact for the same car in oil burner format I’m not too far away from them mpg wise and my servicing costs less.

Wow, that’s sounds like an amazing car! A family sized V6 petrol car that can do anything close to 65mpg on out of town journeys and over 50mpg combined?

Can you tell me the model so I can get one and convert it to LPG?

My 4cyl. diesel powered large family estate has comparable torque to a V6, but I always thought mine was vastly better on fuel.

As my particular brand has variable service intervals based on various factors, including drivng style, I get about 20-22 months between services. I’ve had 3 standard serives costing around £225 and one of £600 (cambelt and water pump (switched as a precaution it is easy to get to when the cambelt is accessible). My recent last service was through an independant garage, which will last until Christmas 2011 cost £150. This works out at about £135 per annum. Not bad for a large family saloon!

In fact for the same car in oil burner format I’m not too far away from them mpg wise and my servicing costs less

What car is this then where the mpg is similar for petrol and diesel? Keen to know 🙂

I could time my car from 30-100mph in 6th if you like?

Really??

Pretty sure my engine won’t even run at 30mph in 6th.
70mph in 6th = 1800rpm
which puts 30mph at 770rpm. 5th will just about pull at 30mph.

Kinda why I was surprised to hear that zedsdead car will pull all the way from 15mph to 150mph in one gear. Even assuming 10k rpm at 150mph (what ‘non snazzy car revs to 10k rpm??), that equates to 1000rpm at 15mph where there can’t be much pull unless it’s a bit of a monster. I did wonder if it was a 350Z, but can’t imagine that’s good for 3 kids.

30mph is probably an absolute minimum, granted 🙂 The engine runs at about 2050 revs at 70mph, so abotu 880 rpm at 30mph which is slightly over idle 🙂 DSG gearbox might not let me do that though, it does downshift if you go too slow.

Spongebob – the oil burner gets around 35+ in the real world. I get 32.
They’re big and heavy cars.

Of course if you boot it everywhere mpg drops like a stone but the same goes for all cars.
It’ll pull from around 600rpm. 5th is a big l a z y gear indeed.

We’re running an old TDCi Mondeo at the moment. The Wife commutes in it (40 miles/day 70mph most of the way), & it doubles as my bike carrier. Has just gone past 150k. Does about 45mpg. Its driven fairly sedately by me, but the Wife gives it a bit of stick. Drives brilliantly. Youd never guess it had covered that many miles, but always concerned that a big bill is never far away. Brother-in-law has just had his Mondeo’s DMF done, £650.
There’s a possibility that it could become our main car for the next few years, while the Wife comes out of work to go to uni. I cant help but think that we might be better swapping to a petrol. If our diesel goes the way of a lot of Mondeo’s we could be looking at bills worth more than the car. I cant imagine the petrol is without faults, but they dont seem as problematic as the diesel models with regards to DMF’s, injectors, & they’ve a turbo that could go pop. As much as I like our old Mondeo, I fear the fear of some big bills will force its replacement.
Then again, it might just soldier on for another 100k miles.
Tough call.

Just take the money you’d save on fuel and tax, and put it in a bank account for when/if something goes wrong. You’ll at least help the environment that way.

re: DMF failure. I’m pretty sure some people just replace it with a regular type at a fraction of the price.
Although I seem to recall some models of Mondeo need the sub-frame to be removed to replace the clutch which = man hours = money…

I cant imagine the petrol is without faults, but they dont seem as problematic as the diesel models with regards to DMF’s, injectors, & they’ve a turbo that could go pop. As much as I like our old Mondeo, I fear the fear of some big bills will force its replacement.

Which is why, after having tried out all the main brands over many years as a company car driver, I bought VAG car. Sorry, but aside from having worn out several Fords cars, i’ve worked in their Dunton research centre, the Dagenham factory when it made cars and Warley HQ. I also know personally a couple of the engineers.

I’m sure things are better than they used to be, but I wouldn’t chance buying a Ford, even if it was engineered in Germany. They are good to start with, but then things do break. Reliability is not as bad as it used to be, but some brands just don’t seem to suffer from this in the same way. I think the root of the problem with Ford stems from the American influence; perhaps they were a little too cost conscious.

VAG cars more reliable?? Audi RS6 is BOTTOM of the reliability index (http://www.reliabilityindex.com/), Audi AllRoad is 7th from bottom.

The cliches about brand reliability are often nonsense IMO.

Back of the fag packet calculation.

2006 diesel vs petrol – looks like about £1.5K more purchase price for the diesel.
At 10K you should save about £500pa on the diesel.

Looks like (excluding the extra fianance cost) you should break even in about 3 years. You’ll probably be up with the higher resale of the diesel (but the difference will probably be less than £1.5K) however The diesel may cost you more if you have a DPF / turbo problem.

Not really much in it. I guess drive both and see which you prefer.

So then Zeds what IS this magic car?

So, you pay more, the resale value will be more, but the actual amount you loose, the difference between the two, will also be more. Becasue there’s more to loose in the first place. And if its a new car, may the Lord have mercy on you soul!

PS – Don’t treat me like a twunt, Surf Mat. Because I’m not.

Your first sentence completely nulls your last one. What complete and utter bo77ox again – sorry PP but you really aren’t doing yourself any favours here.

Sure a good petrol is great, but so is a good diesel. Your reliability stuff is just made up as are most of your other points. It kind of kills your credibility.

I have little faith in modern VAG cars for reliability – sure many are good but they simply are not as reliable as they used to be. If reliability is vital, buy Japanese – apart from some Toyotas…

It’s not magic. It’s just a car.

So then Zeds what IS this magic car?

Mat you are being abrasive again. I however am just curious since he hasn’t mentioned it on this thread 🙂

Which Toyotas are unreliable Mat? Not been impressed with their diesel engines when I’ve looked. Doesn’t help when they set their smaller offering at 90bhp…

Zeds – I was only being daft. Just sounds impressive that’s all – most of the 6 pot motors I know of are pretty cr4p on fuel.

Mol – thinking of all the recalls for dodgy throttles. Generally they are otherwise uber reliable.

I didn’t think you were being abrasive. A lot depends on the car and how it’s driven.

My old man kept a couple of Alfa 75’s. The 3 litre manages 25 – 27mpg regular driving. Not bad for a 20 odd year old car with just over 200 horses running petrol…

He modified it quite a bit, mainly handling, and it’s still fantastic fun to drive. Sounds suuuuuuperb too.

I didn’t think of the throttle thing as a reliability issue. There was a handful of faults in literally millions of cars. Loads of other manufs have big recalls too – they just didn’t make the news.

We’ve had a few Toyota Avensis D4D’s at work as pool cars. Big mileages, generally thrashed by all & sundry. They never skipped a beat.
We traded a Verso D4D in, back in the summer, for a TDi Galaxy. In terms of refinement, if such a thing exists with a diesel, both the Galaxy & the Verso are in a different league to the TDCi Mondeo I mention above.

What was that Avensis like? I know the boy racer brigade slag it off for being ‘boring’ but I appreciate motorway comfort and refinement.. curious.