And the alternative was? i don’t think the tories won the election, it was more a case that the Labour party was such a shower of S**** that they were virtually unelectable.

Well I think it’s pretty clear that the electorate have a range of alternatives when it comes to voting in general elections, so I’m not sure why you’re asking the question.

And of course you are absolutely right – the Tories didn’t win the general election, that’s why they have had to rely on the support of another party to form an effective government.

As far “the Labour party was such a shower of S**** that they were virtually unelectable” is concerned, you’ll find that in parliamentary democracies ruling parties are invariably get voted out of office after a period of time, whether they do extraordinarily well whilst in government, or extraordinarily badly. Such are the contradictions and failings of capitalism that the electorate are never fully satisfied.

In the case of the UK 13 years in power is pretty long time, so New Labour were due to be voted out of office whatever their record/performance. The only surprising thing was the lack of support and confidence the British electorate had in Her Majesty’s Opposition.

Having said that, I completely agree with you that New Labour were an unelectable shower of shit, well from my perspective anyway. Unfortunately too many people disagreed with me and New Labour were able to form a government for 13 years.

“employee…sell their time, at a profit, to their employer”. “At a profit”, as opposed to “at a loss” for example. It didn’t say that wages were profits.

As has been established they get compensation for their labour not profit or loss – it really is basic economics.
The full quote is

What sort of Schweinhund makes a profit out of sick kiddies ?

Well, apart from each and every employee of the NHS who sell their time, at a profit, to their employer?
the comparison is clearly to businesses who do make profit in the other sense. So, even if we take your point to be correct, the argument would be guilty of the fallacy of equivocation.

Privatisation eh?

So you mean staff will have to justify their wages? The outfit/s will have to be organised, cost efficient and answerable to the customer who has the choice to go elsewhere? About bloody time! View echoed by my better half who works for the NHS.

Well I think it’s pretty clear that the electorate have a range of alternatives when it comes to voting in general elections, so I’m not sure why you’re asking the question.

Doesn’t mean the electorate have a meaningful choice though, and for most of the electorate their vote is of minimal importance.

And of course you are absolutely right – the Tories didn’t win the general election, that’s why they have had to rely on the support of another party to form an effective government.

As far “the Labour party was such a shower of S**** that they were virtually unelectable” is concerned, you’ll find that in parliamentary democracies ruling parties are invariably get voted out of office after a period of time, whether they do extraordinarily well whilst in government, or extraordinarily badly. Such are the contradictions and failings of capitalism that the electorate are never fully satisfied.

I will agree that the electorate are never happy, that parties do become “stale”, but it doesn’t change the fact that Labour were a shower of S****, who should have never given the chance.

In the case of the UK 13 years in power is pretty long time, so New Labour were due to be voted out of office whatever their record/performance. The only surprising thing was the lack of support and confidence the British electorate had in Her Majesty’s Opposition.

I think the problem is that Labour were S****, Conservatives no better, so the argument about choice, I suppose would you like to be shot or hung?

Having said that, I completely agree with you that New Labour were an unelectable shower of shit, well from my perspective anyway. Unfortunately too many people disagreed with me and New Labour were able to form a government for 13 years.

So you mean staff will have to justify their wages? The outfit/s will have to be organised, cost efficient and answerable to the customer who has the choice to go elsewhere? About bloody time! View echoed by my better half who works for the NHS.

And will the “customer” really have a choice of where they go, oh sorry mr ambulance driver could you pass the brochure so i can pick the hospital you take me to.

Thank you for your thoughtful dissection of my post in easy to chew segments mrmo. Truly I’m not worthy of it.

I will simply point out that I have managed perfectly well not having either Labour or the Tories as my preferred electoral choice since 1995, if everyone else had agreed with me then neither would have formed a government. So if I can vote other than Labour or Tory, then everyone else can. We have Labour or Tory governments purely because people want Labour or Tory governments.

ernie, whilst i agree that if people voted on mass then we might get away from the see-saw we have, i truly believe that most people do not vote labour or tory for any reason other than, I have always done it. And because so many people will not change, you land up with the election being determined by a handful of voters in a handful of seats.

And yes i know the referendum failed….But it was a crap system being proposed. And for most people the current system is the only system they know and assume, as the UK is right and everyone else is wrong, the current system must be the best.

We have Labour or Tory governments purely because people want Labour or Tory governments.

Not strictly true. I’d give my vote towards a Labour government because I don’t want a Tory government and that is the only realistic way of achieving that desire. Doesn’t mean that I actually want a Labour government. I suppose I could always vote for the party that actually aligns with my own politics but that is throwing my vote away and making way for what will always be the greater of two evils.

I’d be happy for you to convince me that I’m talking bollox on this as it’s something that I try to ratioanlise every time I go to vote.

if people voted on mass then we might get away from the see-saw we have

People do vote “on mass” ………30 million last election.

The problem you appear to have is that they are not voting correctly. Which whilst I won’t dispute that, I’m not going to blame either Cameron or Brown for.

Doesn’t mean that I actually want a Labour government.

Yes it does. You want a Labour government rather than a Tory government.

I vote purely on my “preferred electoral choice”, it doesn’t mean that support everything that the candidate says, or that I even like the party. Until 1995 I was supporting the Labour Party in elections, and yet I considered the Labour Party to be hopelessly inadequate and only supported it like a rope supports a hanged man.

So ernie, if you think all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks, who do you vote for to show your opinion? Knowing full well that a vote for the monster raving loony party isn’t going to get them into power because most people will vote the same way every time there is an election.

Knowing full well that a vote for the monster raving loony party isn’t going to get them into power

Ernie did… and they did 😯

This thread encapsulates the problem of healthcare in the UK; the debate is politicised which simply turns it into a nonsense argument where points are scored and egos boosted or bruised and no one gets any kind of sensible answer or conclusion.

Two questions;

1.) Which country has the best healthcare system in the world?
2.) How do we make our system match that one?

Carry on….

Ok crikey, What is the best is a hard one, certainly not the US, expensive and incomplete coverage. The profit motive results in lots of extra tests. Loose your insurance loose your care, pay for all treatments etc. But if you have money the care is good.

Look at the NHS, there is rationing, there are waiting times, but everyone can get care when they need it, income is not relevant.

Which would i prefer, the UK model as it is. Is it perfect, of course not, can any healthcare system be perfect? unfortunately no, there can never be enough money to provide every treatment to every patient.

in other shocking news, pretty much the whole of primary care in England has been “privatised” for the last 40 years. GP’s are mostly not employees of the NHS, instead they work for partnerships who pay them a salary and allow them to share in “profits”. For some reason the NHS allows these private companies to borrow money (free) to make capital improvements to their buildings, and then retain the profit when buildings are sold.

Whilst everyone is getting their knickers in a twist over privatisation of failing hospitals in the secondary care sector, it’s good to see that most people continue to overlook the largely private primary care sector.

I’ve had 3 punctures today, so am unable to muster any enthusiasm for debate.

The NHS is the best healthcare system we will achieve in the UK, and the Tories hate that, but when it’s gone, it’s gone.

The major problem with any debate about this is that rich people (and politicians, strangely enough) can afford not to give a shit. If the NHS was all there was, and everyone relied on it, I suspect that it would be rather better supported and rather better thought of.

Anyway, back to puncture mending.

1.) Which country has the best healthcare system in the world?

What do you mean by best?
I assume the answer you’re looking for is Cuba, no?
Surely the politics is working properly in this case in that the tories want to introduce the privatisation yet a coalition member is preventing it from becoming legislation. As long as there is a coalition ant the tories don’t have a majority, the bill won’t be passed and this is just scaremongering.

What do you mean by best?
I assume the answer you’re looking for is Cuba, no?

I don’t know, it’s a genuine question. Is healthcare in Cuba better than everywhere else? I was thinking of one of the Scandinavian countries, but I’ve not looked into it.

I think Cuba has some of the best medical education and doctors.
But also what is best? The most efficient? The cheapest? The shortest waiting lists?
There are different sytems across the globe. I don’t think that there exists a “best” system, just a more acceptable to the voting public system.

think Cuba has some of the best medical education and doctors

Again, not having a go, but does that equate to the best healthcare system?

I’ve pumped the tyre up, just waiting to see if I can get to 4 punctures in one day…

Again, not having a go, but does that equate to the best healthcare system?

But also what is best? The most efficient? The cheapest? The shortest waiting lists?
There are different sytems across the globe. I don’t think that there exists a “best” system, just a more acceptable to the voting public system.

Possibly last year i stated the NHS was being broken up, all these so called new directorates, facilities and new name boards outside every hospital departmnent, they even have their own car parking spaces.

Then we have the new , as in brand new dr,s surgerys, that do a lot more than doctor, they have physio, ot, and chemists on site, smaller surgeries are being amalgamated into the new ones and they suddenly aquire a new branding, all ready for the sel off to health insurance comapnies, just like PFI shcools and roads have been either built and then paid for by the tax payer, or taken over, and then become pfi.

Now if i was over 50 anda mountainbiker,i would be seriously worried about care when im a bit older,and my ability to pay for an accident on a bike, and then theres the privatised care homes, for when people get really old, or over 65.

So ernie, if you think all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks, who do you vote for to show your opinion?

Don’t put words into my mouth, I have never said that I think “all politicians from major parties are a bunch of crooks”, they are clearly not. As far as who I vote for, it really is going off the topic and it’s something which I’ve commented on much more relevant threads.

With reference to Cuban healthcare provisions, it has long been established that not only does Cuba’s healthcare system deliver first world care in a third world country, but at a fraction of the cost, something which other countries, including Britain, have looked into. And not only that, in some areas of medical research Cuba is a world leader. And all this has been achieved under cripplingly US sanctions which yes include, unbelievably, pharmaceutical supplies.

This article in the Daily Telegraph which quotes extensively, of all people, a director of the right-wing free-market Adam Smith Institute, highlights the extraordinary value for money that the healthcare system in Cuba provides :

Castro’s Cuba can be a lesson to the world

We are failed Anglo-Saxons and failed Scandinavians. 8)

ernie, sorry, didn’t mean you think politicians are a bunch of crooks, that is my basic standpoint. I accept some aren’t but far too many are in it for what they can get. You only have to consider the expenses fiasco.

My point is if you have no faith in any of the major parties then how do you express your opinion in a meaningful manner.

but yes it is digressing from the topic in hand.

However i don’t believe any of the parties are actually good for the NHS, labour and the abuse of PFI has wasted vast sums of money, if the projects had been funded on balance sheet the long term costs would have been far smaller. And tories they seem hell bent on destroying the NHS for their friends in the private sector to make some money.

There is no evidence that Tory policies enjoy widespread support among the general public. In fact there is plenty of evidence to suggest the opposite. And let’s not forget that, despite being in opposition for 13 years, Tory policies so unimpressed the electorate that they found themselves unable to form an effective government without the support of a rival party.

That is so true.

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

😆

Still having the politics debate when the real questions go unanswered.
What’s the best, how do we move towards it?

totalshell – Member

here we have the best funded health care service in the world and all it gets is knocks.. sure money is tight but those spending the money have to spend it wiser money doesnt grow on trees..

Rubbish – we pay far less for our health care than most similar countries – and get far more.

healthcare for profit always means more cost for poorer outcomes – always

This is a determined ideological attempt to break up the health service in England ( as the con dems writ does not run in Scotland ( or Wales??))

the NHS is a fantastic system that provides great healthcare very cheaply. it is probably the most efficient in the world with priorities and rationing set by clinical need and effectiveness.

We get far better healthcare outcomes for far less money than the US yet the condems want to turn our system in to a us style system. It stinks to high heaven. Fight to protect your NHS or forever live to regret it

What are the chances of a drop in taxes if we privatise the NHS?

Zero.
But they believe they are doing a good job saving money
and considering they screwed half our health care budget on PFI Hospitals
last time they was in Parliament and also done a great job selling off our railways
and busses that some how the TAX Payer still supports when the private sector screws up
and you can see how well a good job they done there, including flogging off our social housing.

Still having the politics debate when the real questions go unanswered.
What’s the best, how do we move towards it?

So you think “healthcare provisions” isn’t political ?

Sometimes I truly despair……..no wonder British politics is up Shit Creek without a paddle.

.

My point is if you have no faith in any of the major parties then how do you express your opinion in a meaningful manner.

The only reason I have no faith in the 3 major parties is that all 3 are now neo-liberal thatcherite parties. And as long as there is a social-democratic alternative to the neo-liberals, then I will vote social-democratic, I will never vote neo-liberal.

The NHS will never be safe under the control of neo-liberals, it will however be reasonably safe under social-democracy. Indeed it was a social-democratic agenda which initially created and sustained the NHS, under both Labour and Tory governments.

As far as my personal voting patterns are concerned :

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/teachers-striking-again/page/14#post-2691703

Yes I know that the Green Party is automatically dismissed because “no one votes for them”, but that is not my responsibility – if 10 million people voted for them they would probably form the next government. At the last general election a sufficient amount of people voted Green for them to get their first MP, then this year they won control of their first council, that’s how things happen – people need to vote instead of complaining.

Btw the way the latest opinion polls suggest that support for the Green Party has trebled since May ’10, although admittedly it’s from a low 1% to a still low 3%, but that probably now makes them the 4th largest party in the UK and there is no reason why their support can’t continue to grow.

Incidentally I only voted green in May ’10 because their candidate was the only one on my ballot paper with a social-democratic agenda, elsewhere I might have voted differently, eg, in Wales I would have quite likely voted Plaid Cymru. But if people just start voting in sufficient numbers for a social-democratic alternatives, then this will have a profound effect on British politics. And as they see their own support starting to ebb away, the 3 major parties will start to change their own agendas, you can be pretty sure of that.

Mmmm. Telling us all how you voted is really, really interesting, but the question still remains. Yes, if you want to make it political then it will be political, but the problem is exactly that. The NHS is used as a political football, constantly, by both sides.

The answer lies in taking healthcare out of political debate and answering the above question.

If what Tandem has linked and true, which will effect everyone within the country
and no ones happy about it. Then some how we should link and include trade unions and the whole
of the country should stop, which would shut down the country and walk to Parliament
including local town halls to voice your concerns.

I just can’t believe people voted for them again I just hope it will effect them worse.

My Dad would have died in the the Queens Hospital in Romford if I had not grabbed a
surgeon walking past on Boxing Day and thats a new PFI building.
They totally foooked up!!
And for some bizarre reason my parents won’t take it further.

but the answer is going to be political to a point, whatever the answer part of it will be money and funding.

Do we pay what we are paying, do we increase taxes and follow the current methodology or do we cut funding and move towards an insurance system.

What needs to be done is to revisit all the PFI deals and figure out the real costs to the tax payer, and re-negoitiate where possible. Whether there should be a £10 charge for seeing a GP as a method or preventing reducing cancelled appointments, i can see some logic, but the moment you start charging anything, it will mean people who should be seeing the doctor will not go.

to answer your questions – the best? depends what for. 🙂

US does cancer care really well but has child mortality rates like the third world.

Netherlands has some very innovative dementia care but much of their elderly care is rather uninspired.

teh French like to stick all medicine up their bottoms. 🙂

Probably the best would be the NHS left alone from political interference and taking best practice from where they see it.

Mmmm. Telling us all how you voted is really, really interesting, but the question still remains. Yes, if you want to make it political then it will be political, but the problem is exactly that. The NHS is used as a political football, constantly, by both sides.

The Conservatives done the same with Interest rates until Labour gave control to the Bank of England

Probably the best would be the NHS left alone from political interference and taking best practice from where they see it.

Which would include privatising some elements, wouldn’t it?

Of course I appreciate that politics will impinge at some point, but beginning the debate by establishing political stances will end in failure as everyone refuses to listen to any other viewpoint.

The way forward is to start with what is best, then work out how to get there.

Try to get the best healthcare we can, rather than the best that fits with our political standpoint, because, in many ways, healthcare is more important than what colour tie we wear on election day.

mrmo – an insurance based system will cost more automatically – its more complex to administer.

Teh best thing to do with the NHS right now is have a moratorium on major reorganisations – they distract time and effort from the core business and achieve very little.

Then revise and revisit it the more stupid bits. Foundation hospital and any vestiges of the internal market. cooperation is a key element no competitician.

All PFI deals need to be revisited – all waste money.

Strengthen NICE, improve NHS management, strengthen accountability in the form of local health authorities or the equivalent.