http://www.tour-qtr.com/epaper_4_2011
Has a nice article on building your own steel frame pg6
Bike Forum
New career - framebuilding
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Posted 4 months ago #
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Why build bikes? How about bespoke 853 wheelchairs. Could be cheaper than the titanium offerings.
Otherwise, have a nice design and build that and see if they come. Or ask Paulus Quiros if he has any subcontracting?
Posted 4 months ago # -
dont be narrow to bycycles.. if you like manipulting tube and can braze/ weld then the classic motorcycle market is massive and we pay top dollar for new look alike frames the wheelchair market is equally strong and going to get much bigger
understand who wants what.. what the competition is.. how much you can make per unit and practice practice practice.
if you can braze as well as the metal work on my trials bikes ( see my blog) then you ll easy get work.. currently 6 months delivery schedule on most 'new' pre 65 trials frames/ sub frames..pre65blogspot
Posted 4 months ago # -
You need a very specific idea of what you want to do, and a pretty high degree of confidence that what you want to do is something which will sell in the market that you operate. There are quite literally a handful of UK/EU custom framebuilders who really make a go of it, as Shand will attest - and he's certainly one of the most skilled builders out there.
The difficulty you need to overcome (assuming you have the skills to build top notch frames - which are not by any means easy to come by) is mostly one of perception. Such has been the decline of British and European custom framebuilding, and its resurgence driven by the US, that there is an ingrained wariness of UK builders with no history. There are a few have seem to be making a go of it (Demon and Paulos Quiros off the top of my head) but TBH there somehow remains an air of inferiority to the top US builders.
So you are up against that obstacle in the first place. Then to prove you can actually produce high end cycle frames with sufficient differentiation to actually sell them, or earn commissions. Then the wise words of Sachs as linked above about learning the craft. Then the practical aspects of actually running a business - assuming you want to make money from it.
I wouldn't say it's impossible, and I sure hope that you and others like you step up and make it happen because it would be great to see. But I have to admit that when I stared into that abyss I stepped back and took a different path.
A good first step might be to go to the Bristol Bespoke show in a couple of months' time and talk to people there. Or rather contact the folks exhibiting there after as I'm sure they'd rather be selling bikes during the show.
Posted 4 months ago # -
Tom at Demon Cycles said it took two years of practice before he felt happy selling a frame he'd made. There are plenty of very good builders around now.
Personally, I'd be more interested in the bespoke accessories associated with handmade frames - bottle cages, racks, saddle bags and whatnot. Things that those who like to personalise their posh new frame further might purchase for £20-200. Your niche could be 'not made in China'.
Posted 4 months ago # -
And then there is the subject of designing and making your own frame fixture,
http://singletrackworld.com/2010/08/interview-will-from-hammoon-cycles/Or buying one, Anvil Journeyman, Sputnik, Bikemachinery Hydra etc.
The Hydra is very expensive, but Richard Sachs uses one http://pelotonmagazine.com/Artisans/content/17/380/Richard-Sachs-Part-2
http://www.bikemachinery.it/prodotti/hydra.html
Even the Bikemachinery Taurus is a lot of money for what it is.
http://www.bikemachinery.it/prodotti/taurus.htmlSome peoples thoughts on the subject:
http://forums.mtbr.com/frame-building/gjertsen-fixture-jig-austin-texas-563053.htmlPosted 4 months ago # -
A sincere thanks to everyone, there is much food for though since my last post.
!
Posted 4 months ago # -
@simoncycles, if you have any specific questions, please get in touch. If you can make it work in this climate then you've got it made. For what it's worth, we've made some big changes in our business over the past few months in order to be able to not only survive, but to be stable in order to be confident we'll still be around in a few years time.
Don't underestimate the 'selling part' part of the business. You might be able to build 1 shit-hot frame a week but you also need to be able to sell everything you make. 'Build it and they will come' doesn't always work.
Do your sums, then do them again, then do them based on only selling 1/4 what you thought you'd sell and see if it still works out. Don't invest in lots of tooling. For on-off bespoke frames, setting up machines will take longer than working with your hands using files and hacksaws. Build 'lots' of frames and destroy them. See why they broke. Keep breaking them.
You will need liability insurance and that'll cost you approx £1500 per year. If you sell 30 frames in a year that means each frame will have cost you £50 in insurance.
How are you going to paint them? How are you paying shipping to the painter? £15 each way will put another £30 onto each frame.
How many frames are you planning to build per year?
etc, etc, etc,
These are the questions you need to be asking yourself....
Posted 3 months ago # -
Dave Yates framebuilding course
Worth going on?
Posted 3 months ago # -
Its booked up for about the next 20 years....*
*2012-2013
Posted 3 months ago # -
You can start by building a road singlespeed frame that takes 130mm OLN wheels so us roadies can pop in old wheels rather than buy the 120mm stuff that's out there.
Posted 3 months ago # -
You can get tubes direct from Reynolds.
http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pdf/rtl_2010_parts_list.pdfBut to visualise and understand the dimensions of the butts the American distriutor has some pictures
http://www.fairing.com/Reynolds.asp?subcat=reynolds&subreynolds=853
Posted 3 months ago # -
Posted 3 months ago #
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see also the Privateer article on bespoke frame builders.
Posted 3 months ago # -
Hi Simonscycles,
I recently found this interesing article/seminar by Carl Stron (Strong frames) on the Frame Builders Collective website called 'the buisness of professional framebuilding' which might be of interest:
http://www.framebuilderscollective.org/wp-content/uploads/Framebuilding-Seminar-2011.pdf
enjoy!
Posted 3 months ago # -
Its already been said but you do need a USP.
A few Ideas:
Internally routed cables and Hydro lines. (Not unique) if done well incling brake lines could look very cool. How about the front brake line inside the fork leg? rigid obviously, BMX style. Im sure it could be done.Intigrated seat post (again not unique) design a saddle clamp thats integrated, will mean made to measure but not a problem on a bespoke frame and people love things made just for them.
Smooth welds and oversized or undersized tubes.
Im sure other people have much better ideas but I really believe with a bit of thought and good design you could be onto a real winner.
I would certainly buy one with my ideas incorperated and would pay a premium for it. Im sure others would too.
GO FOR IT.Posted 3 months ago # -
Pare your kit down to what you really, really need - and it'll also make you a better builder I think. You can build a perfectly straight frame with no jigs, just a bench vice and a piece of string. Filing miters by hand is a perfect way to understand how the tubes go together. Stuff like that.
Don't make road stuff. Roadies want a cheap frame with a bling paint job - unless you can do the paint job yourself, you'll be giving most of the profits to someone else.
Practice, practice, practice. Don't sell the first few frames you make, ride them yourself or give them to mates.
It's a hard business to make money at - but it is also incredibly satisfying
Posted 3 months ago # -
Interesting, Downland Cycles have the same frame jig as me - for years, I've thought it was a one-off homebrew one...
Posted 3 months ago # -
Posted 3 months ago #
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Starrett have currently got some 32tpi hacksaw (frame tube friendly) blades at a very good price
http://www.starrett.co.uk/shop/warehouse-clearance/hacksawblades/
Posted 3 months ago # -
Your positioning of "good value, high quality" might not be enough to set you apart as that's what many offer and almost everyone claims. So it's more of a basis, something that people expect anyway.
As mentioned above it will help you sell, be remembered, get word-of-mouth, be mentioned (and pictured) in magazines and blogs (!) etc. when you have a strong identity, technically interesting/good AND unique solutions, maybe visually specific cues. And don't underestimate: it will be more fun if people think you are cool and really admire your frames rather than thinking of you as reliable provider of good quality/value (but ultimately boring) custom frames.
You should know (and stick to) what you stand for. Even if this limits your market you will be more easy to identify (and identify with) for those who like your niche.
I know this all sounds terribly marketing babble but I'm afraid it's probably human. Everyone (who's after a custom frame at least) want's to be individual and niche etc. but not that niche that you go "Look, this is my new Simon Cycles frame!" and everybody in the car park goes "Oh really? Never heard about it. Looks nice.".
No, even the least vain wouldn't probably mind to hear "Ah, yeah! Heard about them! But haven't actually seen one yet! Cool! Weren't they featured in so-and-so recently? They must really be *light, springy, stiff, ingenious, whatever you want*! And is it true that the frames are made in the cellar of an old mill? And I've heard that Mr Simon is a bike legend himself. Wasn't he racing "Fat Fells Fever" in 1987?/doesn't he always wear his welders mask, even on the bike... " and your customer can then say "Well, yes, I went over and his workshop is really in an old mill in the midst of perfect trails. No wonder he's got such a good understanding of geometry. What impressed me most though is that he used to be an engineer on an oil platform/in a nuclear plant and that he learned a lot of his skills there. That's also the story behind the little petrol can/radiation symbol sticker on the seat tube..." ...you get the idea!It must still be authentic though. You don't have to go wild for the sake of it. But recognizability helps. Special and specific in some way. Your way!
Posted 3 months ago # -
Either that or....
http://www.classicrendezvous.com/British_isles/Kowal_Mike.htm
"...one of the UK's most powerful retailers - asking me how many frames I could make in a day !! "
Norris LockleyPosted 3 months ago # -
Don't make road stuff. Roadies want a cheap frame with a bling paint job
as a cyclist (somebody who rides road/mtb) i would want a top quality tubeset and somebody who understands how a bike will ride when you change the O/D, butting profile, wall thickness etc. there's builders out there like rourke with years of building/racing knowledge who understand all this, it's the new builders who only have fancy paint and lugwork as the 'added value' so you have a couple of choices:
top quality framebuilding with an understanding of what makes a great frame and how it will ride.
bike jewellery for the easily led who want to look at it and post pics on the internet rather than ride it.
there's a market for both, you could of course do both and charge more
Posted 3 months ago # -
I used to work for a frame builder in Birmingham , that's has sadly gone now ( venom cycles) ... i was the painter there for over 7 years and while the money was crap i absolutely loved my job, riding to work every day and then painting fab frames and building them up and then riding home again
......
Id go back tomorrow if they ever started up again ..... and i used to do work for mick kowal as well when his painter was on holiday etc ....... havent seen him for over 12 years though ...
Posted 3 months ago # -
Bespoke Bristol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFdwBs5sGCY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=ULhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4fnqOaaX0E&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
Robin Mather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiDNuH0xYEw
Demon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlKkldKZrYY&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
PaulusQuiros
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOyGJfS69oI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=ULPosted 3 months ago #
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