(and more importantly)- I enjoy riding solo for most of my rides.

I bet everyone else enjoys you riding solo for most of your rides too. 😛

(and more importantly)- I enjoy riding solo for most of my rides.

I bet everyone else enjoys you riding solo for most of your rides too

😆 🙄

You know what I mean. Its when you feel no weight, destressed and chilled….but then sometimes you feel intensely lonely and want 'friends'!

I like the partisan, loose-group nature with no hierarchy or perceived rules.

Hora – Is that why you try and ride with us lot from Blazin Saddles?? Is that a compliment? 🙂

Your more than welcome to ride with us…we like to kill ya, it adds fun to the rides!!! We might start charging you though for the privilege!

uplink – Member

what happens if someone has a bad crash because someone said something was easy when it wasn't and decides to sue because they can't work anymore and have to pay the mortgage?

Couldn't that theoretically happen anyway regardless of whether it's a club or just a ride out with a mate?

It could, but being a paid up and insured club member means that the organiser/officials are protected should there be a claim for compensation, assuming that they haven't done something stupid.

Join if you want to, don't if you don't.

HtN is registered as a club. Race charges go partly towards British Cycling and they protect me and others for millions should something tragic happen.

I know those sort of events are rare, but they also have the potential to ruin those involved. I know you're going to say that it's not a club, but from what you've written above,the law would treat it as a club

Yeah everybody's aware of that. Generally it gets ignored. We have discussed this, and everyone is against it. Because then you end up with membership fees, hassle and arguments. If we started to charge a fee now, THT would just wither and die. It will carry on as it is.

😀

by charging a fee & arranging insurance, aren't you just making yourself more likely to be sued?

Because then you end up with membership fees, hassle and arguments

the CTC charges £75 pa for organisers' liability cover, which I think is a bargain, and so cheap it would be foolish not to have it if there is any evidence of an organisation which might be held liable.

Possibly, but getting sued ten times while insured is going to work out a lot better than getting sued once if you're not insured.

And yeah, just going out riding with your mates could theoretically get you sued if circumstances conspired against you. But it's much harder to prove someone elses culpability if there's no obvious organisation behind the ride.

PP, appreciate your honest answer, maybe another way to ask the question would be are people's significant others, wives, families etc aware of and accepting of the potential consequences to them?

SFB I agree. BC charge something similar.

oop north. I was round your way yesterday afternoon 😀

by charging a fee & arranging insurance, aren't you just making yourself more likely to be sued?

Like an entity/admission that you are a formal/organised structure? An ambulance chaser could pursue I guess if a ad-hoc/new member was hurt and pressed for negligence (i.e. ride leader didnt warn of an impending obstacle on a ride??)

the CTC charges £75 pa for organisers' liability cover, which I think is a bargain, and so cheap it would be foolish not to have it if there is any evidence of an organisation which might be held liable.

Are you still insured when leading 30 bikers down a busy footpath on a Sunday afternoon in the Lake District? 😛

Most clubs have free trials so go for a ride with them, if they're rubbish then don't join up.

The whole liabilty thing is difficult to quantify. There is a very slight chance that, as an organiser, you might get sued for a huge amount of money. I've only heard of one successful suit where a roadie injured himself in a pile up. You could opt to ignore the possibility, or arrange some insurance to cover it.

Are you still insured when leading 30 bikers down a busy footpath on a Sunday afternoon in the Lake District?

the CTC allege not, but as such activity is not actually illegal I'd be interested to see it in court 🙂 I think it might be an unfair contract term.

The fee to CTC/BC is for more than just insurance though. Yes, that's the main benefit for YOU as a club/rider etc but it gives discounts at shops, the money goes to supporting cycling in general be it through local advocacy work or funding the Olympic Development Squad.

Most clubs (IME) have no real rigid structure, that's why occasional riders (who wouldn't otherwise pay up) are asked for a donation while the regular riders pay a yearly subscription.

An ambulance chaser could pursue I guess if a ad-hoc/new member was hurt and pressed for negligence

I recall someone on here – possibly the boggies but maybe not as I'm sure SFB would have mentioned it – who had a guy come along for a taster, refused to sign any disclaimers, refused to wear a helmet, fell off and injured himself, then sued. There was some talk that his "fall" may have been deliberate, in an attempt to put himself in a position where he *could* sue. Does anyone else recall that, or was I day dreaming?

I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication.
Back in the day, you needed to be a member of a club to have a regular group of folk to chat to or ride with. regular meetings at a pub or clubhouse were the forums of their day.
Now they are required no more – you just search you local forums, get your banter, find out who is riding, where & when, then rock up if you fancy joining in.

Perhaps a better question would be: what purpose can forums aspire to & what should the "forum aim" be?

[paranoid mode]

So, how do we stand if someone puts a ride up on STW then? Is it a bunch of mates who met on the internet, or an organised ride that should be insured?

I have a Singletrack jersey, as a subsriber I get shop discounts, do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?

[/paranoid mode]

So, how do we stand if someone puts a ride up on STW then?

DIdn;t Richpips cancel an event planned on the forum after legal advice about responsibilities?

I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication

we found instant communication improved the club experience 🙂

I think 'clubs' are an anachronism, a throw-back to a pre-internet world with less instant communication.
Back in the day, you needed to be a member of a club to have a regular group of folk to chat to or ride with. regular meetings at a pub or clubhouse were the forums of their day.
Now they are required no more – you just search you local forums, get your banter, find out who is riding, where & when, then rock up if you fancy joining in.

Totally not the case for road riding – there are no forums where you can reliably get together a group of 20-30 people every Tuesday & Thursday night for example, or a bigger group on a Sunday, which several of our local clubs manage easily. When you get to competition, clubs are even more useful, road races, time trials etc. don't happen without someone doing all the boring club stuff, like notifying the police, getting insurance etc.

I imagine that for a lot of mountain bikers, riding in a small group is better, so you don't need to get a big gang of riders together. Many mountain bikers don't compete or organise competitions, which is where clubs really come into their own too. Also, a lot of people don't ride all that much, whereas roadies often train with others 2 or 3 times a week or more, which is way harder to organise on a regular basis in a smaller informal group than in a big club.

Joe

Hora: To keep the undesirables out?

seems to be working :o)

If you classed it loosely as a 'meet' with no dedicated leader or route guide then you'd be safe. nbt- that would be interesting to hear which way that went.

Slightly OT: On a Sunday morning addiscombe ride we had two lads how up in tracksuit bottoms, no helmets etc, one had his rear brake hanging off and they more than kept up with us all. we even joked that it was all the running across the fields away from Police choppers that has kept them fit! 😆

do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?

I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason.

hora – Member

Like an entity/admission that you are a formal/organised structure?

No – because as you have insurance there's something [financially] to go after

do I sue the ride organiser, or the mag/website?

I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason.

I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason.

Not at all, they're not organised by the Magazine or staff so I can't see why liability would be an issue.

I've noticed that the ST people don't get involved in these "forum rides" at all, probably specifically for this reason

I believe Chipps is due to go on one soon……

having to be somewhere "on time" may have something to do with it also g

Sorry, I'm just playing Devils advocate here.

TBH I don't give a toss about insurance and all that crap. I think it's a sad reminder of the times when it boils down to covering your (legal) ass to organise a MTB ride. Truthfully, if it ever gets to the point where crap like that is taking over a group of mates organising a ride, I'll give it up and walk instead. I've done it before with other hobbies – If it gets too serious, I loose the enjoyment and jack it in. Really, that's why I generally avoid clubs – Too serious. 🙂

PP, I love you man

Uplink, regardless of insurance cover, there's always something to go for. Without insurance you could lose everything, your house, your bikes, any money you have etc.

Most people have experience of car insurance, where you would have cover,the other party would have cover, so your company deals with all the legalities on your behalf and extracts money from the other insurance company etc. If you were an unisured driver and someone drove into you, the state of play would be similar to this situation with a mountin biker vs an insured club, you would have no legal cover,so you would have to do all the legal work yourself, or pay for your own solicitor, who would extract money from the clubs insurer. If neither party were insured, you would do your legal stuff, but the other party would also be unable to refer it to his own insurer, so would have to defend the claim himself and cover any financial implications resulting.

I think MTBers have always been against organisation/structure etc, maybe it's a throwback to the days when it started when there was no governing body, no race licence, no fees and roadies looked down their nose at this new "sport".
Unfortunately the flipside of that is that there's no real voice when it comes to lobbying for access (unlike the very politically connected Ramblers Assoc, British Horse Society etc) so we get the thin end of the wedge.

years ago was president of a climbing club and every year the same old people complained about the annual fee – same people wanted huts booking -but didn't always turn up so we lost deposits, wanted a newsletter (pre web!) but weren't happy to pay for postage or copying, didn't understand why we declared our actual membership numbers to the BMC (British Mountaineering Council) so we had liability insurance- thankless task

i think in todays environment i'd think much more than twice about taking out people who casually turned up at the club meets – thats what we used to do and the liklehood of injury while climbing is a good deal less than out on an MTB

heres the BMC's current advice to clubs on liability and law

PP, I love you man

Hora that's twice you've said that now….. I ignored it the first time but I'm getting a tad concerned about you now….

😉

yes but hora has got standards – he's not prepared to pay for it – think he wants free love PP

Really, that's why I generally avoid clubs – Too serious.

you've ridden with us PP. The only serious we do is serious fun :o)

I believe Chipps is due to go on one soon……

really?? You mean he's a real person, not an STW myth like Chuck Norris ?

Whilst I can see the attraction to some of paid up club membership, I'm with Hora & PP.

I go riding cos I enjoy it. I don't want to be part of someone else's decision, I ride cos I like to, where I want to.

But then I've never enjoyed clubs and commitment to some nonsense about meeting on Thursdays and hosting whatever etc etc.

Uplink, regardless of insurance cover, there's always something to go for

not always so – at least anything worthwile
We had a £3k carpet ruined by a cleaning company [one man band] at the time our contents insurance didn't cover it so we went after the guy
Our solicitor told us that he had nothing worth chasing & it would cost us more than its worth.

I'm not knocking the idea of insuring groups etc. but I feel it sometimes makes them easy targets for ambulance chasers to mount speculative claims whereas without the ins. they may well not bother

but I feel it sometimes makes them easy targets for ambulance chasers to mount speculative claims

does anyone know of any such claims succeeding ?