On the hills near me is the remains of a crashed WWII aircraft. Over the years people have taken bits off the remains while the rest has rotted into the ground.

Assuming it's not a registered war grave, the law still states that the remains are owned by the crown. Legal status aside, what are the STW views on the removal of these bits (bits of the engine and landing gear have clearly been removed by enthusiasts looking for a momento etc).

In the fact of the fact that it would have rotted away anyway I'm inclined to think it's not really something to worry over, but some I've mentioned it to have virtually classed such actions as attacking a grave.

Discuss 🙂

Er, this is an ethical, not moral question.

Pllage at will.

I assume any bodies were given a proper burial many years ago (if indeed anyone was even lost) and, if so, it seems a fair enough way for the remains of the plane to eventually be lost forever.

And the people that have the parts are probably enthusiasts anyway so they will probably be making sure the memory of any lost airman will live on to a small extent.

I'd not remove a thing, though I would be full of morbid curiosity.

I was in Northern Cyprus not long after the war there, the stuff we could have taken – mosaics statues the lot, but we didn't touch a thing.

if you take the rest of the plane I will build the conveyor belt

Theres one near me I want to go and check out soon. Quite a lot of it is still in evidence which is surprising after all this time.

Its only a grave site if the crew were in it when it crashed, they might have been able to bail.

I'd take a bit if I wanted it, or if I knew someone else who would enjoy receiving it

Fair point ourmaninthenorth – my mis-use of words.

Of course, bodies were indeed removed and given the appropriate send off back in the day.

I too agree that I'd rather people had those parts, maybe restored them and passed their story and enthusiasm on to others rather than the item sitting and vanishing with time. I'm sure there are some exceptions to this, and if you were a family member I wonder if you'd feel different (?) but ultimately it's going to vanish one day (probably within the century at best).

I was in Northern Cyprus not long after the war there, the stuff we could have taken – mosaics statues the lot, but we didn't touch a thing.

Not quite the same thing I don't think, IMO, these are just machines of war that got taken out, not personal possessions and treasures that still belong to "someone".

if you take the rest of the plane I will build the conveyor belt

😆

It's just metal and such. Help yourself

if you take the rest of the plane I will build the conveyor belt

The OP should check for the remains of a conveyor belt – that might be why it crashed.

Its only a grave site if the crew were in it when it crashed, they might have been able to bail.

I think it's only a grave site if the crew were buried there, most were removed and those that were not are generally marked as such. Naturally it would be very bad form to pinch stuff from a grave.

No conveyer noticable. A lovely well machined crank is visible.

well it doesnt seem to worry Timeteam

😀 I wonder if their timescales are a little more distant, I suspect they don't have to worry about relatives being upset. Or if they do it's probably whole towns full of relatives by now 🙂

There's a similar question that's been all over the sport diving world for the last few years – we've got loads of wrecks round our coast, many laden with brass bits and bobs, crockery, cutlery, the captain's gold tooth etc. For underwater stuff all finds are supposed to be reported to the 'Receiver of Wreck' who then will contact the rightful owner to see if they want it, and if not will grant you permission to keep it. I think the police front a similar thing for stuff found on land, but it's your call whether it's worth bothering them about it or not.

The morality/ethics of whether to take stuff or to leave it to rot is one that's been debated to death in the diving forums. Often the only way to identify a wreck is to bring things up and see what marks/dates they've got on them – OTOH some people have been known to go down tooled up with air chisels etc specifically to rip lumps of brass off a known wreck site. War graves and protected wreck sites are a different matter for most, but not necessarily all.

If you find Douglas Baders legs in there I'll buy his left one

suppose it is similar to the diving analogy, only more like finding stuff washed ashore – if you're not out looking for it, come across it and find a random engine/wing/landing gear part that you think looks nice and be nice to restore and keep the "story" alive it's not quite the same as heading out with a trailer and a GPS hunting for scrap iron. That said, I see the point that it's actually quite fun/interesting/sombre to visit these sites and think about it, but at the end of the day it's going to rot/sink/vanish in time anyway and since it's not specifically labelled and not recovered officially it's probably not on anyone elses priority list.

From an engineers standpoint I'd love to rescue the whole engine and get it stripped and preserved because it's one of very few amazing items and has a back-story, and it's currently rotting away. In reality it's going to be impractical to remove and so only a small part could be taken, but that part could be preserved and maybe handed to a museum if no future coffeekings were interested in it as I am. I know an existing older coffeeking who would find it very interesting to see and marvel at but I'm not sure that justifies the removal, ethically, and why I have any right to do so, but I do think that if it were of any interest to anyone it would have been recovered or labelled by now.

I wonder if their timescales are a little more distant, I suspect they don't have to worry about relatives being upset. Or if they do it's probably whole towns full of relatives by now

They've done a plane on timeteam I think

PRobably had official OK, I think the law that governs it is fairly recent (86) and covers all crashed planes, including old stuff, and usually involves speaking to veterans to check they're happy with it. But I think it probably is designed to work more with more intact, interesting and recoverable parts

mosaics statues the lot, but we didn't touch a thing.

these rarely crash into remote mountains!

Its only a grave site if the crew were in it when it crashed, they might have been able to bail.

just as well we don't have the same spurious reverence for crashed cars, lorries and bikes or we'd have to build new roads…

"hat part could be preserved and maybe handed to a museum if no future coffeekings were interested in it as I am. "

Tbf there are plenty of aviation archeology groups that do this sort of stuff, and show recovered items in museums around the country. They also log and record sites of downed aircraft around the country, unfortunately by the time they have the resources,time manpower, funding etc, to recover the next craft on the list it has quite often already been stripped of anything useful or interesting.

If you really want get involved, try here 🙂

No groups local to me by a hundred miles or so unless I've mis-read.

Fair do's, there are a few other organisations about though, all though it's a few years since I was involved now 🙂

pix

Reminds me of the wreck we came across in the 90's, whilst hoofing it across the peat bogs in the hills to the East of Manchester. Apparetntly it was an American bomber bound for Woodford aerodrome, but got a bit lost in the fog and just ploughed into the hillside. Nobody survived.

What we saw were some bits of undercarriage, engine and the odd bit fuselage/wings. Some of the stainelss steel bits looked like they had been there a week, not 50 years!

The considered opinion was to leave it exactly as one found it out of respect for the dead. I concur with this thinking still!

The one on Snowdon (I think) is much talked about but by the time you get there there is nothing but a few bits of aluminium and a wheel strut. Hardly enough for a wheelbarrow, so I can only assume the rest has been looted.

rest has been looted.

Is it looting?

The considered opinion was to leave it exactly as one found it out of respect for the dead. I concur with this thinking still!

I see the thinking if the bodies were buried at the same spot, but without it's just scrap metal on a hill, eventually it'll corrode away – do you then protect the soil with the leached content?

I can see both ways of thinking. The interested and possibly greedy person in me wants to go rescue it and have a piece of local history restored and kept safe, but I can't really argue that too fiercely as I'm probably not interested enough to join a distant group and apply for licenses etc. But for the sake of removing something no-one would miss and having an interesting, historic talking point to keep safe I'd consider doing it – acid etching it and cleaning it up nicely, putting it in a case etc, then to be honest I'd probably donate it to a local museum/veteran group if I left (I don't agree with taking it away from the area, it being local history).

in 1973 a vixen crashed at rnas yeovilton in somerset as part of the salvage team we arrived to secure the site we were there within minutes but some souvenir hunter had already taken the pilots helmet

You can mourn over the dead all you want and you can celebrate a dead hero all you want but at the end of the day, their dead. Dead as dodos.

It crashed with some soldiers in it who probably were fantastic people who lost their lives fighting for their country. Heroes. There you go. Worry about people who are still alive who have done courageous stuff or people who come back from Afghanistan with no legs left and celebrate their sacrifice for their country and try and help em.

'Simples'

Don't take something unless you are certain it is yours. Ask the question means you have doubts. Follow your instincts [Luke].

Legally yes it's wrong.

It's a crash site. Presumably the bodies have been removed and buried respectfully, the rest is just litter, albeit interesting litter if you are that way inclined. I'd be happy for people to cart it away and effectively tidy up the area. If there are any memorials, crosses etc set up these should be respected and not touched.

If a military aircraft today crashed into the side of Bleaklow (for instance) do you think they'd leave the wreckage there? There'd be an outcry over it if they did. Crashed cars on roadsides are not left in place as a memorial to the dead.

Crashed cars on roadsides are not left in place as a memorial to the dead.

There'd be a damn sight fewer accidents if they did leave them to remind people how bloody dangerous it is to be stupid in a car

There'd be a damn sight fewer accidents if they did leave them to remind people how bloody dangerous it is to be stupid in a car

Your not far wrong actually – leave them with the blood stains on the cars and on the tarmac. It would make people think at least.

As for the plane there is one on a hill near me – I thought about taking a bit as a memento, then decided that if everyone did there would be no plane left for me to see. I took a picture instead.

David.

As for the plane there is one on a hill near me – I thought about taking a bit as a memento, then decided that if everyone did there would be no plane left for me to see. I took a picture instead.

See I was tempted to do that but there's not sufficient left to make a decent picture. Maybe that's just my skill level. I'll have to wrestle with this internally and decide on the spot I think. But I'll take my 20D in case I choose the photo route 🙂