All these elements that scientists have created in nuclear experiments: would it be correct to say that they have only ever existed anywhere as a result of these experiments?

Pretty mind-blowing if so… 😯

Their existance has been discovered by experiment. The nature of the experiment means they do not ‘occur naturally on Earth’.

They may very well exist naturally elsewhere in the universe, eg. the sun.

my guess is no
All elements are made in stars .
The lower the atomic number the more abundant it is in the universe. Therefore these numbers are just so high as to be so rare they are not on earth
I dont think we can create a new element ie one that theoretically has never before existed.
Sketchy best guess.

Nope

Minute amounts of curium probably exist in natural deposits of uranium.

Possibly yes, at least for the transactinides. Element 118, ununoctium, is currently top of the shop – syntesised by directing a beam of 40 million million million Ca ions at californium for 4 months, to produce 2 atoms (!) of UUO. With a half life of less than a millisecond.

I’m not sure the question is answerable as who can unequivocally state the conditions of the big bang? But the probablility of generating these transactinides by collision is so low that it requires such a long experiment, makes it sounds like a singular set of circumstances. I’m sure people have thought about it so maybe a decent analysis is out there somewhere.

They missed unobtainium off that list, but I guess thats in keeping with the nature of the stuff, its never there when you look for it.

those man made atoms with large atomic mass are generally rather unstable. i.e. they are radioactive. Very. They are desperately trying to fall apart, or even fly apart, and do so very quickly forming various smaller atoms that are more stable. Have they ever existed outside the laboratory* where they were created? quite probably, but do they ‘exist’ naturally? Can you go out and find some?Not really, they fall apart very quickly.

* nuclear reactor

I was rather starry-eyes with the possibility that humans might have created something that had never existed anywhere else in space and time.

I could ramble on about: how that’s a bit like artistic works; infinite monkeys; and how nuclear stability is the reason I’d like to give for riding a steel-framed bike.

But luckily for you, I shalln’t 😉

Have they ever existed outside the laboratory* where they were created? quite probably, but do they ‘exist’ naturally? …
* nuclear reactor

I’m lead to believe the Universe is jam packed full of an infinate amount of dirty great nuclear reactors.

I was rather starry-eyes with the possibility that humans might have created something that had never existed anywhere else in space and time.

When I’m in philosophically nonchalant mood, I sometimes remind myself that every single particle in my body originated from the Sun.

It makes me feel special 8)

my body originated from the Sun.

It makes me feel special

Our very own page 7 fella

syntesised by directing a beam of 40 million million million Ca ions at californium for 4 months

I’ve got to be honest, I can’t imagine what would go through your head to make you think, “ha, that’ll be a good idea.”

I’m pretty sure even if I had come up with that bit of genius, after a week I’d have given it up as a bad job.

Human-made.

Jordan is man-made. And she has certain abundancies.

Our sun is still fusing hydrogen into helium. It’s not yet got to the phase in it’s life cycle of fusing heavier elements. This means that rather than the elements in our bodies coming from OUR sun the more amazing fact is we have come from the centres of other stars in our near universe. Even more amazingly, stars that have since died in spectacular supernova since it’s these ultimate explosions of the universe that distribute the heavier elements to other parts of the universe.

nort sure what her half life is but she is certainly a half wit

😀 @ maccruiskeen

Actually after posting my comment, I realised that in fact “every single particle in my body” will eventually return to the Sun, and then languish forever in a Black Hole** …….. that didn’t feel so good 🙁

**unless a Black Hole is a portal to a new expanding universe ?

EDIT : I’ve just read this again properly : “This means that rather than the elements in our bodies coming from OUR sun the more amazing fact is we have come from the centres of other stars in our near universe”

So the elements in my body come from countless stars in countless solar systems ? ……….I feel better already

I am a child of the stars ……. 8) X 2

I always liked the reaction of the Group 1 metals (lithium > sodium > potassium > rubidium > caesium) with water, the reaction gets progressively more violent as you go through the list to the extent that those elements cannot exist for very long at all in pure state. There is a sixth metal in that group, Francium, which is so violently reactive/unstable that it was calculated that at any one time in the world, ony 24g of it is in existence before it reacts or undergoes radioactive decomposition.

youtube video here shows the reaction of the first 5 metals.

I’ll also never forget what happened when someone at school nicked a jar of potassium, poured off the storage oil (to keep it stable) then threw the jar into the toilet. The toilet seat ended up embedded in the ceiling and the chemistry stores got a lock installed on it the next day. 🙂

I am a child of the stars

I prefer to think of you as space cadet 😉
PS Nice comments on Israel thread

I’m sure that I read somewhere about Iron being the most stable element, which is why there is so much of it.

The toilet seat ended up embedded in the ceiling….

I know the feeling. And so does anyone else who’s had a vindaloo meal with extra chillies in the Star of India next to the Tesco Express on the Brighton Road.

I always liked the reaction of the Group 1 metals (lithium > sodium > potassium > rubidium > caesium)

I don’t like that reaction at all. Particularly when I stick my helmet light battery pack in my camelbak.

Ernie,

Blackholes eventually evaporate so even if you ended up in one that’s not the end. You’d be emitted over time via Hawking radiation to end up in some other alien’s small intestine or something 🙂

Ambrose, i think you’re right in that Iron is the most stable atom. Think of instablity as being the potential to release energy, something unstable wants to fall to a lower enrgy state and release some energy. Smaller atoms ‘want’ to join together to make bigger ones – i.e. they will undergo fusion and give out (net) energy as they do so. Bigger atoms than iron want to fly apart, they undergo fission and release (net) energy. Iron doesn’t ‘want’ to do anything.

Iron is, I think therefore, the heaviest atom that can form in a sun while it is still ‘burning’ – while it is still consuming fuel (atoms), smashing them together and releasing energy. All the heavier atoms form in the final throws, the supernova. That bang is power full enough to smash atoms together in a way that requires/consumes energy to do so. Those exploding stars of the past have quite possibly created some of those ‘man-made’ elements for a few fractions of a second….but they will then have fallen apart again as they are so unstable.

Our sun isn’t nearly large enough to become a black hole.

Our sun isn’t nearly large enough to become a black hole.

So what are we going to get at the end then…………just damp squib ? That’s going to be a disappointment 🙁

This thread’s turning out to be a right emotional roller-coaster 😐

Cheers Neil.

BTW- did I once end up with your set of Hope piston bore tools by accident? Any chance of a loan?

Ambrose. Don’t remember. I have a set, all 3 sizes (mini, and the 2 m4 pistons) and you are welcome to use them but I live in London these days so I’d have to post them to you. I suspect someone in swansea or cardiff would be simpler!
BTW, what do you teach? I thought it was physics but I am re-evaluating that right now 😀 Also not chemistry (after seeing your anodizing question)

Oi- cheeky. I’m a geologist that teaches general science lower down the school, physics and biology at GCSE.

I want to get a decent, durable, attractive finish with the anodising.

ernie, yeah a bit boring….if a supernova is boring 😀

I’m not quite sure what our sun will do, but it isn’t big enough to end up as a pulsar and is far too small to end up as a black hole.

The end of the sun isn’t hte depressing bit. The ultimate end of the universe though…..it’s expanding right? If, or rather IF, there is enough mass in it then the expansion will slow down because of gravity, stop, then it shrinks, and ultimately ends in a reverse big bang 😯 However, I think current theory is that there is no where near enough mass for that (the search ofr dark matter to one side) so it goes on expanding forever…slowly gettng very spread out, very very cold, very dark…..very boring. 😕

geology, now that is cool 😀
So can you explain how the earth has a core of molten iron and how that creates the earth’s magnetic field to me?

… the big bang? … a singular set of circumstances

You guys and your wacky science humour 😆

amborse – just sent you a ‘friend request’ on facebook

if there is enough mass in it then the expansion will slow down because of gravity

See, I’ve never understood this bit.
If there is nothing currently causing the universe to expand, other than the inertia of the original big bang, then no matter how small the mass, or how weak the gravity, the combined effect of that mass and gravity must eventually overcome the inertia, so the universe must, one day, stop expanding.
Why is it not so ?

Ah the joys of wikipedia 🙂

it seems our sun. like 97% of stars, isn’t big enough to even end in a supernova 🙁 it will blow off it’s outer layer and the core, about the size of the earth, ends up as a white dwarf….slowly dimming as it just cools down…basically a lot lump of stuff that is pretty dense but not dense enough to any of the really exiting things. I’m with ernie….that’s a bit boring!

gravity is a pretty weak force. Okay yes, it is alays there, so the rate of expansion will always be slowing down, but if there isn’t enough mass there then the universe has enough inertia to ‘escape’ it’s own gravity. it keeps on getting bigger. It is forever getting bigger at a slower and slower rate, but the rate at which it’s expanion is slowing is negligible, and is itself reducing.

If expansion = distance
rate of expansion = velocity
rate of change of rate of expansion = acceleration

universe is not a singularity, distance is +ve
universe is expanding, velocity is +ve
rate of expansion is slowing, accel is -ve
but D is a very big +ve number, as is v. A is a small -ve, nearly zero, and A get’s closer and closer to zero as D get’s bigger.

Hmm…explaining this without resorting to calculus is hard 😕 I haven’t helped much have I?

They missed unobtainium off that list, but I guess thats in keeping with the nature of the stuff, its never there when you look for it.

Its all in the post winging its way to all the singletrack users who’ve bought up the worlds supply of factory second Oakleys

“interchangeable UNOBTAINIUM® nose pads and earsocks insure comfortable, secure fit”