To be honest Bazz, your coming across as bitter left wing now

http://www.firebrigadedispute.co.uk/

Worth reading. I fully support these guys, they do a good job only to be treated like sh|t by pen wielding idiots.

Lol, trust me i’m a moderate, but i do hate the bitter and rancid right wing that choose to only ever see the worst of everthing.

Wow i’m surprised it took this long for the rancid bitter right wing to leap on the “sleeping at night” bandwagon.

Well rather than insult the poster why dont you explain why the FBU wont move to 12hr shifts when you claim there to be so little impact?

His point was perfectly valid – during a 24hr shift there needs to be time for firefighting and then sleeping and “useflu” standby time. During a 12hr shift there doesnt need to be any sleep time (since that is done in off time), so the useful standby time makes up a greater proportion of the shift period. What feature of this do the FBU disagree with?

As for “wedded to 24hr” Im referring to the FBU response to the contract change demands made by the employers. The ONLY response (other than call a strike ballot) to the contract proposals by the LFBU has been to put a business case for 24hr shifts.

nickname – Member
http://www.firebrigadedispute.co.uk/

Worth reading. I fully support these guys, they do a good job only to be treated like sh|t by pen wielding idiots.

Good find, it’s all true and well worth a read.

Isn’t the core of this dispute down to the timing of when shifts start? The peak time for calls is 6pm?

The shift change over time is also 6pm which results in a significant overtime cost for any crews sent out just before 6. By changing the shift start / finish time, a greater proportion of the calls would be resourced in normal paid time rather than overtime.

I can’t be sure on this as the “facts” on firebrigadedispute don’t have anything about the timing of shifts or the times for peak calls.

His point was perfectly valid – during a 24hr shift there needs to be time for firefighting and then sleeping and “useflu” standby time. During a 12hr shift there doesnt need to be any sleep time (since that is done in off time), so the useful standby time makes up a greater proportion of the shift period. What feature of this do the FBU disagree with?

Re read my post, there has always been a stand down period at night because simply put there are some hours of the day generally 0100hrs to 0500hrs where there is no other work other than emergency calls that can be done, and it has generally been accepted that a rested firefighter is more efficient than a tired one. The 12 hr shifts proposed by the LFB management still contain a stand down period, the 24 hr shifts proposed by the union is simply 2 12 hour shifts bolted together.

so do you mean in a 24hr shift an FF will sleep from 01:00 to 05:00 and at no other time?

Farmer_John – Member
Isn’t the core of this dispute down to the timing of when shifts start? The peak time for calls is 6pm?

No it is not, the core of this dispute is that rather than negotiate a settlement to a change of contracts the management would rather sack the entire workforce and impose new terms and conditions.

Bazz – do you have a copy of the ballot question btw?

Stoner – Member
so do you mean in a 24hr shift an FF will sleep from 01:00 to 05:00 and at no other time?

I believe the actual proposed stand down period is midnight to 0500hrs, and there would certainly be no sleeping outside of these hours, we simply have to much to do. But it’s all academic now as the proposal was turned down completely.

Stoner – Member
Bazz – do you have a copy of the ballot question btw?

Sorry no i don’t.

so then, a FF working a 12/12 shift pattern would work 12 day hours, go home for 12 hours, kip, come back for 12 day hrs. Fire Brigade gets 24hrs solid graft from the day shift. The night shift work 12-5 hours so that’s 14hrs in two days. Tot it up and you have 38hrs of graft in a 48 hour period.

on a 24hr shift you have day one guys working 20hrs solid, then home to kip when the next lot come in to do another 20hrs giving 40hrs total.

All sounds good for 24hr shifts so far but there’s no way a FF is going to work 20hrs solid is there?

The nature of our work is that the really hard graft bit generally only lasts for 3-4 hours i.e. at a large incident before your relieved, the rest of our time is spent carrying out inspections, visits and community work, all slower paced and there would be meal breaks as there would be on the 12 hour day shift. So your right it does, from a productivity point, make better sense to have 24 hr shifts. Makes you wonder why they rejected them so quickly doesn’t it?

were are only paid for 42hrs not 48hrs

A quick google of news reports suggests these negotiations have been going on 5 years so I can (almost) understand why the Brigade is loosing patience with the Union and moving to the end game.

However, the Union can’t reject the Brigade’s suggestion on shifts (and also their compromise plan) and at the same time moan about how bad the Brigade is for not adopting their 24hr shift plan!

Seems some heads need banging together.

were are only paid for 42hrs not 48hrs

fair enough, but you can see why the cynic would say that a 24hr shift is designed to be the cushtiest for the FF? Complete your weekly hours obligations in two days = 5 day weekend for other jobs (after a bit of a kip, naturally)

Not 5 years at all, read the link that was posted earlier plenty in there, but to clarify there has been suggestions that it was changed but the councillors that make up the London fire and emergency planning authority had failed to reach a consensus up until 14 months ago, last August they voted on the changes and the vote failed, at this time the authority was made up of 5 tories, 3 labour, 2 lib dems, and 1 green, the tories voted for and the rest against stating they didn’t think the given reasons were good enough, the brigade were given up to 18 months to re think and re draft the proposal. Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories and the tory leader of the authority called an emergency meeting where the vote was taken again and not surprisingly passed by one. They then spent the winter and spring drawing up their battle plans presumably as there were no negotiations, before stalling through the start of the summer because they didn’t want to talk to some of the union negotiators. Finally negotiations started in June 2010. So nearer 5 months than 5 years.

Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories

I blame Labour.

😉

I couldn’t give a toss if a fire fighter does sleep for 8 hours of a 24 shift, I’d still rather they were 10 minutes closer to the appliance when the shout goes up.

Hampshire were apparently trying to reduce crews from 5 to 4. I’m no genius, but I can’t see that that’s going to make anyone safer including the fire fighters themselves.

this will make you laugh (well some it may) of the 12 stations we are dropping to day cover night call they have a cunning plan to help reduce turnout times

the plans are to block off the dorm doors which access the station and knock a new one to the outside of the building (thus bypassing the working time directive as you are away from your place of work)

you go to work as normal on the first day on at 8am then work til 7pm then you got to the dorm with your pager til 8am you then report for duty. you do this for 4 days and 4 nights and you are not allowed off station for the four days unless in the engine on work related stuff. you then have four days off and report again four days later.

as we are loosing 11 stations already and 15 pumps all remaining stations will be clearly much busier, so in not too many days you will be tired out.

you are allowed a visitor to the dorm 8pm til 10pm but so is everyone else so not very private

they plan on manning this by forcing everyone who joined after 2003 to do it as they have it in there contract that they will do any shift system enforced on them. they also as they wont have enough still plan on offering to pay the other people 9000 a year extra (non pensionable) if they cant supply the manpower no doubt they will just sack and re-employ us all

this is neither fair to new or old contract workers or family friendly one bit. but its what they are doing

also as of this year we are told when we are on leave , no if’s or but’s but when they tell you. ive got for kids at home and not one bit of leave during the school holidays at all this year. im also non too keen on missing out on half my kids lives for my remaining time in the job

Firestarter – is your complaint that you’re still going to be allowed to receive visits from family and friends during working hours? And that you’ll continue to work roughly the same number of hours?

This will probablly seem pretty bizarre to the many people who do shifts but can’t invite friends and family round during their paid hours. Why is it that firefighters should be treated differently?

no the complaint is i will go to work on monday at 8am and not get home til friday at 8am

which by my working is 96 hours rather than the current 42 hours

djglover – Member

To be honest Bazz, your coming across as bitter left wing now

Clever tactic.

You see Bazz as the least militant firefighter on here, so you level that accusation at him in the belief he might respond by posting stuff to try to counter the allegation, eg, “no I’m very critical of the FBU leadership, they pressurised us into voting in favour of the strike” etc etc.

Clever, but unfortunately for you djglover, it didn’t work.

“no the complaint is i will go to work on monday at 8am and not get home til friday at 8am

which by my working is 96 hours rather than the current 42 hours “

You’re out of touch. Sorry.

Plenty of people work away from home in the week – they certainly don’t get paid on an hourly rate from the time they leave home to the time they get back – they get paid for the hours they actually work.

John he is not working away from home he is not leaving work for that entire period. I suspect you can tell the difference.

Stoner – Member
Then a couple of weeks later one labour councillor defected to the tories
I blame Labour.

Lol, so do i, apparently they were investigating her for corruption so she jumped before she was de selected. The tories happily gave a her a home, people of Brixton weren’t to pleased as they never wanted a tory councillor, thats why they voted labour.

as junkyard says also for those on the newer contracts since 2003 they will be on the exact same salary that they are for 42 hours but there for 96. for the newer so called lucky ones its a 9 grand increase for being there an extra 54 hours cover

also ive worked away , ive also done years in the army but ive never worked somewhere where they said oh by the way you know that shift you do well we are ingoring it and making you work what we fancy and where we fancy

anyway our brigade arent striking as its happening and thats it. but i can see why london are

you go to work as normal on the first day on at 8am then work til 7pm then you got to the dorm with your pager til 8am you then report for duty. you do this for 4 days and 4 nights and you are not allowed off station for the four days unless in the engine on work related stuff. you then have four days off and report again four days later.

Do you have a link to this as I can’t find any mention on the link above. Do they really propose that you are ‘confined to barracks’ for 4 days solid ? If so that’s quite staggering!

woody thats our brigade not london. we signed up to the hours change about two years ago but since then they have changed our leave this year and all this to come

thats why london and other brigades are fighting the proposals as we were promised lots of protections when signing up for the new hours but it was basically a blank contract we ended up with (thanks in no small part to the union as it happens)

firestarter

but it was basically a blank contract we ended up with

that makes sense unfortunately and confirms my worst suspicions re union ineptitude. I think my lot will have the same problem in the not too distant future and management will have the upper hand. I’m afraid my experiences with unions and their ‘reps’ has not been good and I have no faith in their abilities (or the morals of many of them, which I will not go into here) and I speak as a union member 👿

……confirms my worst suspicions re union ineptitude

And yet for me it just confirms what I already know, which is that trade unions, despite the media bollox, have no power or influence. Funny that.

“management will have the upper hand”

Yes they will. What did you think……….that the trade unions would have the “upper hand” ? 😕

In this particular case, the London FB management has been planning for the strike, and investing vast amounts of money, for over a year.

Wow i’m surprised it took this long for the rancid bitter right wing to leap on the “sleeping at night” bandwagon.

That was a mature and well thought out response. I did state I didn’t understand the situation and was looking for clarification of why fire fighters could be expected work 24hr shifts because obviously there would be need for rest in that period (and if there was’t surely that puts anyone your serving at risk). From everything above I still can’t see why fire fighters can’t work ‘normal’ shift patterns be it 12 or even 8 hours like everybidy else does. There seem to be very few jobs that might require the same person being on call for a 24hr period or greater, one of the few roles I can think of would be a doctor where maybe continuity of care may be compromised. Instead I got the usual defensive knee jerk left wing everyone’s having a go at us response.

To me it sounds like the whole current situation is a right mess, which is obviously down to the management team to great extent. However it does appear the union is more than culpable in propagating the situation. Neither side seems prepared to talk sensibly and as a result every solution is a half baked hotch potch of compromnises and mini victories born out of point scoring. Seems like a lot of public sector negotiations are like this. Ironic really when most people in the public sector pride themselves on serving the public…..

which is that trade unions, despite the media bollox, have no power or influence.

….because of their ineptitude?

I would disagree with your statement anyway, as unions do have power and influence if used correctly.

Just a thought…

The life of a firefighter is no longer as appealing as it apparently once was. If we believe the propaganda its a wonder any of them stay in the service at all. [There are very few careers where people who have been “in” for 15 years think life is better now than it was.] However given that everyone in the brigade is apparently on the brink of leaving anyway – are the union missing a trick? Play bluff – ok then fire service terminate everyone’s contracts – union members won’t sign the new contract and then you have a problem on the next day with no (or nearly no) staff. Or actually are the new T&Cs and the Union “Solidarity” not that strong?

It has struck me for a long time that the problem in many heavily unionised public services is that the management were promoted from within the “ranks” and therefore actually clueless about management (and in a “disciplined service” like the firebrigade this is worse as the masses are expected to follow instruction from above with little question). I suspect this is also exacerbated by the “characters” who end up as the union reps – and some sort of horrendous power struggle which has been going on for years/decades. The answer is of course to fire all the managers and put in some professionals (who no nothing about fighting fires but are good at managing and motivating people) of course that might not suit FFs who’s career paths have just been wiped out…

Poly we now do that you can join and start right at station manager

C4 news tonight shhould be on c4 player, Jon Snow interviewing the Fire bod and the union bloke they agreed to talk tonight at 21.00hrs and then altered it to 09.00 hrs tomorrow morning, good argument, no or little eye contact between them.

the problem in many heavily unionised public services is that the management were promoted from within the “ranks” and therefore actually clueless about management

Oh excellent, the fact that management is crap is all down to the unions as well.

Stumpyjon – my apologies if my response was a little harsh, i seem to remember a thread from a while back where you had little sympathy for some dispute or another and came across imo as very right wing, it is very possible, with hind sight, that i made an assumption. My bad.

I largely agree with your second paragraph.

http://www.enfieldindependent.co.uk/news/8473267.Homeless_fire_couple_claim_London_Fire_Brigade_bosses_let_them_down/?ref=mr

💡 if i was a terror wrist i’d be looking to make 05/11/10 go with a B A N G 💡