I’m sure a lot of people on here have thought about it and are aware of the lammas project going on at the moment. I’m 26 so have (hopefully) many years left on this earth of which to make decisions about what I do with my life.

Part of me really likes the idea of quitting my job, and instead growing vegetables, rearing chickens, having goats etc….
I am at uni studying arboriculture (And I am self -employed making products from coppice woodlands) so I am no stranger to hard physical work. So I have no dissolutions about how tough it could be trying to try and live off the land. My wife and I are planning to move back to NZ (as she is from there) so it is possible for a pretty modest amount of money we could buy a few acres of land to do this on.

However i have things which are holding me back from doing this, and my point in posting is to see whether other people feel the same.

My fears about doing this are not so much about failing (which i know is always a possibility) but the compromises that I will have to make in order for it to be possible. Im pretty sure living this lifestyle you can wave goodbye to going out for a drink with friends, the cinema, going out for dinner, buying a nice bike, holidays etc……….

I would say this is probably a realistic perspective (although correct me if you think im wrong) of the two options of either working full-time and having money or living off the land.

It’s funny because i often meet people at either ends of the extreme, either hardcore hippy’s that have a heart attack if you mention cutting down a tree, to yuppies who are all about being seen in the right clubs or whatever. Is there a middle ground here or is it one or the other?

Is there a middle ground here or is it one or the other?

Part time work so you don’t have to…

wave goodbye to going out for a drink with friends, the cinema, going out for dinner, buying a nice bike, holidays etc……….

Slightly off topic but there was a bloke in the news a few years ago who was collecting rain water in various ways simply from what fell on his property/land….he would purify and store said water and use it as and when he wanted or needed to, it meant he rarely turned his taps on and didnt have much of a water bill….the water company tried to take him to court for stealing THEIR water….thankfully the court told them to sling their hook as they dont actually own the water, they are simply a water supply company.

Middle ground I would say if you like bikes and holidays and ever want to leave NZ at any point if you live there.
Im self employed (though mainly unemployed at the moment). My cash goes on bills, toys and diesel for the van at the moment. I buy stuff if I need it not want it. Grow some veg, looking into a wood burner as I get access to free wood sometimes. Would like chickens but not practical at the moment,trying to find a happy balance. I’ve spent a lot of time in NZ and stayed and worked on lifestyle plots. It was great but I do like to travel and you need money for that as well as bills, van insurance etc.
Good luck working it out let me know the answer.

You live in a society that is now heavily reliant on the the economies of scale and convenience of ‘buying-in’ most of our needs.

It is the road hardest travelled to exist outside of that. The key must be to get yourself weaned of the need for unecessary consumer and luxury goods that we are all brainwashed to believe that we ‘need’ and are entitled to because ‘you’re worth it’.

It would be a very hardcore life that didn’t enter the cash society at all.

I think with hard work you could make a small surplus to gain some cash or one of you have a part time job.

So you could grow your own veg ( but it might be a bit monotonous) and keep a few beasts – after all thats how many people lived a couple of hundred years ago but it would be a dull life. without money there is no fuel for a tractor for example

To aim for a mainly self sufficient, low carbon, lifestyle and generate a small cash surplus for the things you mention would be possible. Keep bees, artisan cheese, that sort of thing

Minimise outgoings and become as self-self-sufficient as reasonably possible. Part-time/temporary/casual work for cash for the stuff you can’t do yourself.

Just been reading the Lammas site, very interesting.

I have no real advice except all the above seems about right to me, esp. TJ.

Some of those homes look fab thou 😉

unecessary consumer and luxury goods that we are all brainwashed to believe that we ‘need’

Grrr….

It’s not a great comparison, work or live off the land, as it implies the only reason you work is to get money to live. Whilst that’s true for some people / jobs, others find their work highly rewarding for all sorts of personal reasons.
Surely you should aspire to get one of these jobs and integrate it into your personal beliefs on sustainable living?

e.g. The drawback to me of living off the land is that it sounds very boring and non-stimulating. Absolutely fine and laudable if you have something else to occupy your creative energies, but on its own it sounds quite a moribund life.

At 26 you are as strong as you’ll ever be, are almost indestructible and can recover overnight. By your mid-thirties you’ll still be able to work as hard but overdo it and you’ll pull something and need a few weeks of. By your mid-forties you’ll have accumulated a few chronic injuries and be worried about pulling something every time you have a big job to do. By your mid-fifties you’ll find the kind of effort required to be self-sufficient punishing. I don’t don’t how you’ll feel by retiremnt age because I haven’t got there yet.

I’ve kept active and fit, weigh the same as I did at 21 and I’m thankful I don’t need to work physically hard to make ends meet.

I am aiming for that middle ground myself. The aim is to get as close to the self-sustaining end as possible, but accepting that there will be a journey from where I am now towards it and I may not make it all the way. The ultimate aim would be a house (either renovation or self build) that is as energy efficient as possible, on sufficient land to grow as much as possible (time, space etc) and short rotation coppice sufficient fuel for the family needs. If there were other energy sources (wind, micro hydro, solar) possible then I’d look to harness them as well.

Whether this is possible or not, time will only tell. I would like to do as much of it as communally as possible. The economies of scale often mean shared effort is better and bigger can be better – but a small-ish community.

I’d say do what you can when you can and work towards a goal and enjoy the journey rather than jump in at the deep end and beasting yourself to achieve something you might not want or like.

I think the middle ground is something very difficult to find. Start keeping all your receipts for a few months, what proportion of your outgoings is going on food? Its likely significantly less than it costs to keep a roof over your head and less than it costs for you to travel around.

I can cook (rather than just warm things up) and as a result buying food is pretty cheap as I buy very little that has added value – it represents about 10% of my expenditure (probably less actually because that figure is my weekly shop and includes things like a bit of booze, and household stuff like toiletries and cleaning stuff). So if growing my own food cost me nothing (which it wouldn’t), and I only ate food that I grew myself, then it would have to only take up half a day a week to be worth while. And the thing is its not necessarily cheap, I caught a bit of jimmy doherty’s programme where he grew everything he needed for a christmas dinner – reared the turkey and all, and compared it in terms of cost and taste with the supermarket equivalents. The meal would have cost £60 from a supermarket, £120 if he’d bought from farm shops, but if I heard right growing it himself had cost £1500!

So if it doesn’t make economic sense, then you need another reason to do it – like it being incredibly and endlessly amusing.

There’s a guy with a farm in my tri club. He grows corn as a cash crop and buys everything he needs himself from the supermarket. Specialisation is the only way to make a living according to him.

Edukator – Member

There’s a guy with a farm in my tri club. He grows corn as a cash crop and buys everything he needs himself from the supermarket. Specialisation is the only way to make a living according to him.

isn’t that what we call a farmer?

i too would like to aim towards the OPs goal of being self-sufficient.
but i do not think it is realistic that you can cut all ties with the society/economy. you still need money for things that aren’t available to you from/on you small holding such as timber for building, tools for gardening/ploughing, diesel, etc.

i reckon the best way to do it would be to hook up with some like minded people and share the burden of tilling, weeding, sowing, harvesting, building, lugging stuff etc. and even cooking.

you’ll need to have some money coming in, but if you work together/put your money in a pot it’ll go further.

i often eye up the old farm houses down south, but given the winters here i don’t think i’d fancy that sort of lifestyle through the colder months….

i have just got an allotment, am in the middle of selling my house to buy and live on a narrowboat. im currently working long hours for okish money. Im hoping i will be able to get by working part time so i can spend more time with my kids and riding. Im slowly coming to the realisation that no amount of money can buy back time.

A tiny, well insulated, wood stove-warmed house on a small holding. DIY solar/wood hot water.

Do some sums to work out what’s worth growing to support yourself and what’s worth growing to sell as surplus to them buy in extras.

Coppiced wood for fuel.

deluded…

Tim i dont know who you are referring to as being deluded?

Thanks for your thoughts, i definitely agree with having a whole community project to be part of. It’s always going to be easier to work in a group, i guess a bit like the idea of the kibbutz in Israel. Also one of the interesting things wrong with modern society is our lack of community. It seems that the people in the lammas project actually know their neighbours and socialise, share food etc.

I also wonder whether the physical work would be that difficult once you have become established, say after the first 5 years. If you are using permaculture type methods there is minimal digging and maintainance, more just letting it sort its self out.

That said you always have to have some kind of income source (perhaps unrelated to self-sufficiency) because there are things you NEED that require money, let along the things that you might WANT!

treefingerlongboards – Member

Thanks for your thoughts, i definitely agree with having a whole community project to be part ofGreat. Now we’re just arguing about the size of said community.

Mr Tree, you’ve not really touched on what you want to do or why you want to do it. All you’ve done is air some ideas and mention liking the idea of a Kibbutz.

What is it you want to achieve, i.e move toward?

What do you want to stop doing, i.e. move away from?

What are your reasons?

What are your intentions?

What’s in it for you/your wife and others?

How compelling are these factors?

I also wonder whether the physical work would be that difficult once you have become established, say after the first 5 years. If you are using permaculture type methods there is minimal digging and maintainance, more just letting it sort its self out.

I suspect it would be very hard indeed especially with minimum mechanisation. I suspect 70+ hour weeks of unrelenting hard labour

I suspect it would be very hard indeed especially with minimum mechanisation. I suspect 70+ hour weeks of unrelenting hard labour

Based on…?

based on doing a little bit of farm work a good few years ago and the experience of my uncle Jim who farmed a smallholding in shropshire that is where my family come from.

That farm was small and they were nearly self sufficient in the way many small farmers would have been prewar but it was a hard life indeed. He ran the farm from the 30s into the 80s

Just my suspicion thats all.

This is an interesting read if you’re considering this sort of lifestyle. He interviews loads of people doing it, from all ends of the spectrum. Lots of practical advice. Certainly helped me when I moved into a large cardboard box by the river (That last bit’s not true, but the book is good) 😉

Fairynuff

based on doing a little bit of farm work a good few years ago and the experience of my uncle Jim

I doubt your uncle Jim was in to permaculture. That is a departure from what we would call farming in the UK – a far more sensible and sustainable approach. I know people who spend far less tim and effort than you describe and get close-ish to self sufficiency for what they do.

You will indeed be able to buy a few acres but you have to be careful where and what services etc. you are getting into. Funnily enough the cost of living in NZ is surprisingly high as are land values. Going off grid is reasonably possible but you will need a good steady water supply year round and be able to put a decent waste management system in place. A friend of mine. Has a place just outside Wellington that’s off grid – has hydro powered battery bank, stream water and a reed bed waste system. All up inc the house and land it was circa 900k ! Low running costs though. I suppose I am confused why you feel the need to be self sufficient yet have nice bikes etc, seems like a bit of an oxymoron to me. You can live perfectly well in town in a well designed, efficient house and grow your own veg etc – we do. We have solar water and a 12v light system now , our bills are very low year round.