i tend to only take an interest in ‘modern’ bikes when i’m vaguely thinking about a new one plus i’m really out of touch these days full stop.

my current bike, intense 5.5 evp with pike 454 airs, hope hoops, xt all the way etc, i built up from new in about 2008 and it really was everything i’d hoped it would be and still is.

but all this new fangled wheel size nonsense asides (i tried a 29er hardtail for a year and was indifferent, much preferred the 26 hardtail i built next), i keep seeing comments about ‘new geometry’ and looking about the car park all i seem to see are bikes that have zero length stems with bars higher than the seat like and flat pedals everywhere.

so have bikes really changed that much, and indeed for an old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill does it matter a toss?

Only if you let em.

According to my face book my td1 is now 6 years old. Its had a few rebuilds in that time but it’s still number 1 for 80% of my riding.

Yeah I’d maybe like a turner flux for 10% of that riding but most of the time it would be sat about doing sod all so I don’t 🙂

Depends what you’re looking for in a bike. Some bikes make some things easier but ime even at the extremes the one thing that never changes is you

You still have to steer and pedal (we have ebikes now though).
Geometry has evolved and suspension has improved.
Personally I don’t have the desire to change my bike in line with tech changes, however, I think the biggest difference is the spread of ability? Short travel can now hit much bigger stuff. Long travel can now comfortably ride all day, up and down.
And dropper posts.

the best design for a bicycle is the double triangle frame, like it was when it was 1st invented.
most bikes still follow this design.

so no.

Yes massively. Just bought a new bike and I can’t believe the difference that 27.5″, tubeless, new geometry and short stems, super wide bars, 1×10, etc. Really big difference if you ask me. And I am like you and enjoy riding up hill.

old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill

Finding it hard to comprehend how you didn’t instantly fall in love with 29er.
Was tubeless mainstream in 2008? And have you gone tubeless? If not, you should.

Bigger bars and dropper posts make more difference than all of the other “improvements” in my opinion

For natural XC even those aren’t that important…

No really. The geometry has evolved slightly, but you can do this to your old bike with a new headset, and the suspension has improved quite a bit. Bar widths are an important change.

However, the most popular wheel size is barely any bigger than the most popular one 8 years go, the shape of the frames is the same, the spread of gears is the same, tyre widths are similar on most bikes. And we still regard 30lbs as being totally acceptable for a 6″ travel bike for some unknown reason.

Yes, tbh, but not in ways that make the old ones suddenly bad… It’s not like in the 90s when old bikes genuinely sucked balls and the changes were making the difference between shit and not (*). And old school XC is probably where the difference is least felt though shocks and stuff have come along.

So frinstance, your fork there is more or less on par with the second worst Sektor you can buy today- perfectly good but what used to be top end has been overtaken. Rims have changed a lot with weight, width and tubeless but it’s all incremental. And so on.

But it was a good bike then with good parts so as long as it’s not knackered, it should still be good. Quite a lot of bike, for old school XC! If you were wanting to push it harder then the difference between it and a 2016 #enduro bike is quite big, partly in terms of quality/performance but mostly just sizing and geometry.

(*) sorry retrobikerists, even your pride and joy was shite, I’d rather have a £300 halfords bike. Your Fat Chance was shite, your C26 with its disc drive was shite, yes I know, Tomac, it makes no difference, your smokes and darts were ok they were alright… Well OK I’d rather have a C26 than a £300 halfords bike, but only so I could sell it for a billion pounds.

They have changed a lot, that’s for sure. How much of an improvement it is is another issue entirely.

Re wheels – probably depends where you ride. On loose rocky climbs, 29 is much better. Elsewhere, possibly not so much.

Plus tyres are a big change, imo. Enduro bikes probably incremental improvements on what was around back then.

But boggo standard hardtails, not a huge change if you aren’t appreciating the wheel and tyre size. Riding positions have changed with the wider bars – that is a question of getting used to it, really.

Oh and droppers.

Tubeless was definitely around in 2008, I went that way in 2005 when I got the Yeti 575 with coil pikes.

Things have changed massively since then… to be honest I think they have changed a fair bit since I switched from the Yeti to the Whyte T129 which taught me 29″ wheels were actually a great idea. To me, last year and this year (2017 model year) have been a really big shift in mainstream bike makers, with slacker geometries/wider bars/shorter stems etc all shifting to the norm.

I always think these things are cyclic. There is a pretty big change, then everything settles down to little shifts for a bit before another big change comes along a few years later.

Up to a couple of years ago bikes had stayed pretty much the same for 10 to 15 years with only small incremental improvements changes. 29ers became favoured by the XC crowd but another cog or two at the back and minor suspension tweaks didn’t make much difference to the riding experience.
In my opinion the recent popularity of wider rims and plus sized tyres has made a bigger difference, with the ability to run lower pressures for a smoother, grippier ride without the bulk of a fatbike. Going plus on the rigid singlespeed I used to keep for winter use only has been quite a revelation and had me riding it more than any other bike this summer.

IMO the modern ‘trail’ geos which seem to focus on sub 67 HA are significantly worse for proper xc riding than more traditional geos. Slow steering, front end wandering on climbs etc etc.

Don’t even get me started on bars that are so wide they dont fit through gaps betwen trees in proper singletrack.

You still have to steer and pedal (we have ebikes now though)

Which you still have to pedal and steer….

Comparing bikes from 8 years ago to now, I think there are lots of little changes here and there, a bit lighter here, a bit wider there, a little slacker, slightly bigger wheels, a bit longer, a bit lower, a bit stiffer, a couple more sprockets back there. Individually, not earth shattering, but when you add them all up, the make a more noticeable difference.

Not to say your bike is bad, (I I had a slope style of similar vintage, great fun, if a little heavy) moderner bikes have just evolved, rather than had a revolution. 2008 was past the ‘bikes are shite, but they’re all we know’ era.

Bike fit has changed quite a lot. And decent suspension damping is easier to come across.

I rode one of these at the end of the noughties, upgraded with a Fox 36 RC2 (it’s a Reign from eight years ago)…

TBH it could probably do most of what I do on my current bikes, but I feel much less sketchy doing it because of the new geometry.

For XC 29in wheels have been a “game changer” though, and I don’t use those words easily.

sorry retrobikerists, even your pride and joy was shite, I’d rather have a £300 halfords bike. Your Fat Chance was shite, your C26 with its disc drive was shite,

Would make an interesting thread. I’m not in denial about the limitations of retro bikes but I’d definitely rather have a rigid fat chance with canti brakes and 2.1″ tyres to ride than any £300 Halfords bike. The Halfords bike may have shonky suspension and cheap discs but it wouldn’t ride anywhere near as nicely.

well mine havent

but all this new fangled wheel size nonsense asides

Nothing wrong with 26′ wheels, until you try 29′ and they work so much better for you that 26′ now just feels wrong. That’s how it worked for me, not everyone feels the same.

I still have fun on my 2009 bike.

OK, price inflation has spoiled my rant- my 2010 £300 halfords bike was better than a 90s retro but today, not so much. So let’s say, a £500 Halfords bike for 2016, a Voodoo Hoodoo. If you want to avoid any arguments, maybe go as high as £600 for a Bizango to make it open and shut.

Capt. Kronos – Member

Tubeless was definitely around in 2008, I went that way in 2005 when I got the Yeti 575 with coil pikes.

Yah, but it was mostly fairly ropey. I remember people saying “tubeless is the future”, and it was back then, it’s only more recent that it’s the present. Modern rims and TLR are awesome tbh, UST’s not holding us back any more

Nothing wrong with 26′ wheels, until you try 29′ and they work so much better for you that 26′ now just feels wrong. That’s how it worked for me, not everyone feels the same.

Well, I tried 29′ for a weekend and didn’t like it at all – the bike just felt dead.

I never really had any problem with tubeless back in the day! That was proper UST rims and tyres too!

Then again, I was very probably just lucky – I recall the threads on here at the time of tubeless disasters most days 😉

FWIW you could get a 853 steel hardtail with full XT, 717 rims and a Reba for £1k in 2008.

Merlin used to have the good-value hardtail market sewn up, eh?

Until about 18 months ago I felt quite sanctimonious hoovering up cheap 26″ frames, wheels and tyres for next to nothing…then I rode a 29er.I don’t have a 26″ bike now.

ransos – Member
Well, I tried 29′ for a weekend and didn’t like it at all – the bike just felt dead.

But you’re not suggesting that all 29ers handle identically?

Capt. Kronos – Member

I never really had any problem with tubeless back in the day! That was proper UST rims and tyres too!

Then again, I was very probably just lucky

Proper UST all round did work well, it was just heavy and generally expensive

(qoute-of-quote) old school natural xc orientated rider like myself who likes riding uphill (/qoute-of-quote)

Finding it hard to comprehend how you didn’t instantly fall in love with 29er.

I love riding uphill, often as fast as I possibly can, just for fun. But am completely ambivalent about 29ers, after demoing a half-dozen. I can see why they are good at what they do, but what they do (IMO) is make things faster, somewhat easier and, overall, MTBing less-engaging.

If I was regularly riding marathons, 12 hr backcountry epics, or new to MTBing, I could see the point. But I don’t/ aren’t.

Luddite 26er to the max here 😆 , 3×9, 32mm forks, tubes, narrow rims, 2.25 tyres, 69-70 deg head angles. It’s a wonder I’m even able to enjoy myself on a bike at all… 😉

I’ve got a 2009 Turner 5 spot as my main trail bike.

The geometry is a bit old school but its easily tweaked to make it feel a bit more modern.

Angle set and offset bushings slackened the HA by 1.5 degrees. It’s now a very fashionable 67. Wider bars and a shorter stem (720mm and 60mm is fine I’m not an ape) is another easy change.

Straight steerer limits its future upgrade-ability as far as forks are concerned but its running a 2013 150mm Rev with the RLT damper and a Fox RP3 shock.

Yes its got 26″ wheels but so what, I’m not convinced 27.5″ would feel any different for trail riding.

It rides nice I still really enjoy it.

I’m not a luddite – I have a nice 29er hardtail that I bought this year but I’m not convinced good bikes have suddenly become obsolete because new ones are a bit longer and slacker

FWIW you could get a 853 steel hardtail with full XT, 717 rims and a Reba for £1k in 2008.

And I just bought a 29er hardtail with full SRAM GX 1 x 11, a quality aluminium frame, Reba RLTs and Mavic 319s for £900. It even had a Prologo saddle!

Like @Chapaking I had a 2009 Reign until the BB threads got stripped 🙁 out and I was forced into buying a new bike. 27.5″ wheels, short stem, wide bars, better performance shock and forks and 1*11 all make a difference. However if my Giant was still on the go then other than wheel size I could have done all that myself.

For the record my Giant climbed much more securely than the Whyte G150 I replaced it with but the Whyte is faster, more planted and responsive than the Reign, No Diggety, no doubt!

Hell no, Scotsroutes.
I loved the feel of my ’16 whyte 529 when i bought it UNTIL the moment i went from xc bridalpaths to Lee Quarry where i’d normally play for an Adrenalin fix… I plopped my pants!
My previous hardtails had done everything, Merlins, Carreras, Inbreds, whatever…
Every trail centre, bridalways, Canal towpath jollies out – the lot

I had a go on a ’16 Bizango and id found my do everything hardtail again

My 2005 Nicolas Helius still has a 67 degree head angle

Carries newer forks, wider bars and wider rims than it used to, but still running 9 speed SRAM X.0 (best shifter feel ever IMO) – everyone whose ridden it still loves how it feels, and I’ve ridden plenty of newer bikes that don’t seem to carry any major advantage for any of the riding I do to justify spending major money on transferring to a new frame, fork and wheel size.

And I just bought a 29er hardtail with full SRAM GX 1 x 11, a quality aluminium frame, Reba RLTs and Mavic 319s for £900. It even had a Prologo saddle!

I’ve got the same bike I think! But mine cost £720 with 20% off plus BC discount.

Wheels were a bit weighty, but it’d still wipe the floor with those old Merlin HTs.

The Boardman (was I right?) is a bit of an outlier these days though. Shame they don’t do an 853 or carbon version, with a slightly longer front end.

My 26er Anthem was a far superior bike to my new 29er XC machine…

how I miss that bike…which I basically gave a way to some bloke off here for chips…

tpbiker – Member
My 26er Anthem was a far superior bike to my new 29er XC machine…
how I miss that bike…which I basically gave a way to some bloke off here for chips…

Nicely reflecting my current dilemma. I’ve a carbon Blur XC that I’ve been trying to sell but there really does appear to be little value in it. So the question is; do I “give it away” for peanuts or just keep it? I’ve better options for long XC days and so just looking for something longer travel. Inevitably it’s a bit of a mind game. It’s not that the Blur is suddenly crap but my head has definitely been turned by newer geometries and larger wheel sizes,

Big differences:

Shimano brakes and Rock Shox forks aren’t up to the same quality standards they used to be.

Effective gear range has reduced, but drivetrains are more expensive.

The introduction of a completely pointless wheelsize (650B) and other pointless new standards has caused the market to stagnate and sales to slow.

Overpriced tourers with stupid gearing and a bloody silly name are popular amongst the ex golfers.

I’ve not tried any really new bikes with new geometry so I can’t really comment on those, but of the 3 bikes I have one is a hardtail from 98, one is a 140mm full suss from 2005 built up quite burly and a 2010 Anthem built up quite light.
Non of them have got particularly new kit on them but are all still good fun to ride, and I ride them faster now than back in the day.
So my theory is about new bikes, that they will certainly ride differently due to advances in suspension and geometry but whether that’s better is quite subjective.
I don’t need wider bars, droppers or 1x.
The bikes still work and I’m still happy riding them and don’t feel the need to spend thousands on swapping them.

Tyres have also got better.

I’m getting way more grip for less weight and far fewer punctures.

I’ve learnt to ride a lot better over that 8 years as well, which confuses the issue. But I’m pretty sure that the longish, slackish 29er hardtail with it’s nice wide bars and dinky stem is an improvement on the rather short, twitchy 26er hardtail with a 90mm stem that I was running back then.

It doesn’t make all that much difference. I’d not go back, but if I’d not had a new bike in 8 years I’m not sure I’d be suffering. 🙂