I’ve been casually looking for a while now, in a variety of trades, and something that frequently crops up in the job description and really pisses me off is a salary description of ‘competitive, depending on experience’.
I thought I’d found a cracker earlier in the week, put in my application and was offered an interview almost immediately.
It’s not simple to organise midweek childcare or time off from my current job, so the interview and position need to be worth it.
The final email conversation with this one was to ask for clarification of what their competitive salary was. It’s about 20% less than I currently earn, so after all the effort, no good and everybodies time is wasted.
One niggle in my mind though, did I shoot myself in the foot by enquiring on salary too early? I know it’s more common to negotiate salary after being offered the job.
Equally, had the salary been clearly advertised, I’d not have applied in the first place.
Hey ho, back to the hunting.

The final email conversation with this one was to ask for clarification of what their competitive salary was

There’s your problem.

That should have been the first question that you should have asked when offered the interview.
‘competitive, depending on experience’ actually means “open to negotiation” as far as I am concerned.

An honest answer to a legitimate question would have saved you both wasting your time.

You wouldn’t be afraid to ask where the job is or what the hours were. Why be shy about the main reason you go to work?

Pisses me right off as well. Why waste their time and my time by not mentioning salary. Maybe it’s a different world in HR but for me it’s all project based work so you need to cost for your time against a specific project. Anyone got a cost code for browsing singletrackworld.

Job hunting grumble

Rule 34.

I’ve never had a job hunting grumble, the Internet is full of the stuff.

If they offer you the job, tell them exactly that, it’s below your current salary so they’ll need to make a better offer. (If they don’t offer you the job, the salary is an irrelevance anyway.)

That should have bee the first question that you should have asked when offered the interview.

Assuming they have a fixed salary to offer and aren’t tailoring it to the candidate; they might have wiggle room to increase it in order to attract the best applicant. Did you tell them it was too low?

I agree though, it’s a bloody annoyance that most don’t even give a rough idea of salary on the advert. I can see why though – if they’re offering a higher salary than those currently doing the job are already on, it could cause friction.

Company I work for advertises a range for salaried posts, and literally everyone gets the bottom. So last time we advertised for anything other than an entry level post, this happened:

“Hi, congratulations, you’re our preferred candidate”
“Cool, I want this much money”
“No”
“Oh well then, see ya.”
“Hi, congratulations, you were… among our preferred candidates”

Of the 6 people we interviewed, the 4th person we phoned was willing to do the job for the minimum. Pro tip- it’s OK to buy haribos in the pound shop but not project managers

You can get a job doing this?

Where do I apply?

Oh, hang on, I see……….

I had an odd job offer experience recently. Interview went well, salary offer good and we shook on the deal. Email that evening the formal offer was over £2k less than the interview offer! They were surprised and couldn’t understand why I turned them down.

I know it’s more common to negotiate salary after being offered the job.

Nope. You know that bit in the interview when they say ‘do you have any questions’ you find out just what the package is.

You don’t know if they are paying enough. They need to know if they can afford you.

It’s not dating, it’s business. Negotiation is part of the dance

Rule 34.

*sniggers*

You can get a job doing this?

What would the job title be though?

Grumble location executive?

Pronhunter?

Grotmaster?

Jazzfinder General?

What would the job title be though?

Pimpmaster Jazz. Obviously.

😆

The vacancy is already filled then? Damn.

Tell me about it, ads usually read as “we want the greatest applicant that’s ever applied for anything ever, plus they should have all the skills they’d ever need for the role, but ideally a bunch more they can pass onto our other staff for free in return we offer some vague promises of money, and a AMAZING package which will likely be a couple of things that are either a legal requirement (new auto enrol pension) and or so easy and cheap to implement they’d be mad not to (childcare vouchers).

Are there really that many good unemployed people left, or are they only interested in recruiting people who are so sick of their current employer theyre risk their statutory redundancy money and risk the whole 2 year ‘trial period’.

Pimpmaster Jazz. Obviously.

8)

I can see why though – if they’re offering a higher salary than those currently doing the job are already on, it could cause friction.

Thats one of the reasons, but also because sometimes we don’t really know what market value is (its not automatically 10% more than you are on). Sometimes because good salaries just sound very attractive and get you snowed under with people who can’t do the job but would like to try.

We used to advertise with salaries, all that happened was when we got to a preferred candidate who justified near the top of the range, we would offer that and they would try to negotiate up anyway, or if we we had a candidate who was at the bottom of the experience range they has assumed they were going to get the top dollar and be disappointed. Our current approach is to advertise without a salary and then HR screen them on the phone to make sure they are legal to work in the UK, know where the job is (we have a spate of people who seem to ignore that), they can string a sentence together, and what their salary expectations are BEFORE we short list. Frustratingly we’ve had quite a few recently who tell HR their expectations are X, but when the offer comes out at X (or even X+10%) then say, no I want X+30%.

The counterpoint to that is, it forces the candidate to show their hand first. You’ve got a salary budget of (say) £30k-£35k, a candidate says “well, I was looking for £25k” and they’ve immediately done themselves out of a higher salary unless you’re sufficiently structured / scrupulous / stupid to offer them £5k more than they’ve asked for.

Also – you’re recruiting and you don’t know the going rate for the position you’re recruiting for? Seriously? 😯

Of course you do, but if someone appears qualified and undervalued themselves then so be it.

I’ve got two (vague) experiences of this.

I applied for a job with a large company. I was unemployed, but my previous role paid them more than they were advertising for. I told them this, they offered me more than the advertised upper boundary of the salary. Being as I was unemployed I was quite impressed.

I left that company 6 years later to go and work for a former boss, he knew my salary, I made it clear I wanted a pay rise out of it, took redundancy from previous company, then his offer was to match my previous salary. I was unimpressed, and left after 3 months when I got offered a significant pay rise elsewhere.

It’s a massive frustration though, I saw a good job recently with BA. I’d have been a good fit for it I reckon. I know BA don’t pay well (cachè of working there, staff travel etc), but I had no clue if the role was £25k or £125k. There was so much waffle in the advert it wasn’t clear either. At least give a range, even a broad one. They gave a level, so I presume it was more likely filled internally where they presumably have salary bands published. I did google, but it was fruitless.

That said, I worked somewhere where the salary band for a grade was £25-£96k.

TL/DR: sensible, nowt of note

I had an odd job offer experience recently. Interview went well, salary offer good and we shook on the deal. Email that evening the formal offer was over £2k less than the interview offer! They were surprised and couldn’t understand why I turned them down.

Our HR team did some training with us not so long ago and told us that verbal offers are legally binding and could land us in an employment tribunal. Maybe not the best way to start employment with a company though!

In my limited experience I find it is best to wait until your potential employer offers you the job before talking numbers. Once they have decided you are the best man for the job and they want you you can usually negotiate a good offer (still may be no good to you but at least you know it’s the best they will do). If you ask what the salary is before this you will get them low balling you as they may have other candidates who interest them etc. Who ever mentions salary first usually looses. If you are asked what your expectations are just tell them once they think you are the right man then it is more appropriate to talk numbers, as you are sure the right salary will not be an issue, dont want such an issue to potentially rule you out….blah blah. Does anyone tell future employers what they REALLY earn…we all ad a bit don’t we…

I actually don’t, then regret it!

Hmm, lots of valid points and methinks I may have gone too early with the finances.
Still, I’d be surprised if I could negotiate quite the difference between this budget and my requirements.
Back to the drawing board….

Stany – what makes you think that you are really worth what you want and not being overpaid where you are? It may be that they are being competitive and your understanding of the competition is wrong. Or they might be deluded.

Cougar – Moderator
Also – you’re recruiting and you don’t know the going rate for the position you’re recruiting for? Seriously?

Certainly. I quite often am hiring in the 25-45k range and it’s not always clear based on anything simple to measure like yrs experience or qualifications what makes the difference in expectations. The market is rather odd too in that some graduates with didly squat experience are coming with silly expectations and folks with 5yrs have learned it’s not all about the salary but where you work and who with that matters. If you throw in the possibility that the candidate might be coming from that London with deluded ideas on what normal is, and the fact there are some skills which we rarely see and expect to have to train for but will pay a premium for if they come up. We also (preBrexit) used to get many enquiries from across the channel where salaries are quoted Net of vat, and they have weird 14 pay days a year etc. Sometimes finding a perfect fit will take 6-9 months so it’s easier to accept a cheaper mouldable fit and keep looking in case they don’t work out etc. These are why you might not put up to 50k on an advert even if you might go that high for an amazing candidate.

Andy4d – I’m guessing with BS like that you work in sales. You are wasting everyone’s time if you can’t establish if you are even in the same area of thinking.

Does anyone tell future employers what they REALLY earn…we all ad a bit don’t we…

Nope, salary is easily verified and lying isn’t very professional.

Nope, salary is easily verified and lying isn’t very professional to obtain a larger salary is a criminal offence under section 16 of the Theft Act 1968.

FTFY.

Your P45 doesn’t lie 😆

This is one area where using an agency can actually help. They tend to know the employer and how flexible they are on salary and tell you to forget it if your expectations are too high.

I’m quite in favour of applying and then declining interview if the offered salary comes out too low. Eventually employers will realise that people need to live and £30K in London for 20 years of experience is not going to cut it.

Your P45 doesn’t lie

+1

Contractor day rates can be elastic though 😛

Poly – it’s not so much what I think I’m worth.
It’s a base line to pay the bills.
If the job can’t match the base line, there’s no point in pursuing it. Hence the irritation of going through the process for a ‘competitive’ salary.

@poly.
I was only sharing what was my experience from my time job hunting.
I currently employ over 60 people part time and full time and have a salary budget in excess of £1.5 million per year, and no not in sales. Nothing big in the scheme of things but we are a happy team. I have people in different roles that earn from £10k to nearly £100k. Salary scales can vary widely and often there is scope to negotiate. If some one asks me what we pay before I even decide I want them I usually say it can start from about x (they seem more interested in the money than the job). If, after interviewing someone i know I want them it usually goes more along the lines how much will it take to get you (within what I currently pay, can afford, your skils etc). You may feel it B.S. I was only giving an opinion.
The area of thinking you are on about may be attainable, it may not, that is a discussion I tend to have with the successful candidate and not the other people at their interview. If you have done your research you should know what the market rate is for your skills.

Andy – read your earlier post again the bit in bracket is exactly what the Op is trying to avoid. He doesn’t have time to waste interviewing with people who can never afford him. It also contradicts your over confidence that once they realise how good you are they will find a way to afford you.

If a job pays a truly competitive salary, then the job ad would state what the salary is, e.g. above £60k plus benefits.
If the salary isn’t stated then the first thing to ask is what it is. If an employer can’t give you a straight answer there and then, walk away.

Nope, salary is easily verified and lying … to obtain a larger salary is a criminal offence

Is. It. Bollox.

I could say I’m on double my existing salary at interview. If a company think I’m worth that then they may pay it. They may tell me to jog on, or offer me 25% of that.

If they agree, it’s not theft, or fraud, or blackmail. It’s what they are willing to pay.

So who is the victim of this crime?

My p45 didn’t give an accurate reflection of my salary. No way they could have worked it out.

‘competitive’ means low. ie this keeps the company competitive. If the wage was great, it would be stated in the ad. You want a company desperate for your skills, that’ll give you a competitive advantage.

So if competitive means low pay, don’t bother applying?
Or, if I do apply and ask about salary before the interview, I’m more interested in money than the job.
And, if I do go to the interview, perform and sell myself, just to then find out the salary is negotiable but capped well below expectations, that’s my time and the interviewers time wasted (and in my case, my mums as she’ll be looking after the boys)
Gotta love job hunting!!!

Send them an email politely asking what the anticipated salary range of the position is. Polite directness is an asset in business.

Personally I just skip past jobs adverts that don’t state a salary range.
I’m happy to negotiate, but “competitive” usually mean “not very competitive” so I just don’t bother.