Yeah but you're a miserable sod 😉

My carbon bars definitley took away whatever caused tingly hands on long rides. Maybe its sweep or whatever, but they are very much more comfy.

I can't feel a difference in flex or anything like that. I just went oversize because I got a good deal on an OS bar/stem combo. I think it looks a bit crap compared to standard 25.4mm but that seems to be getting rarer so thought I'd future proof!

Trying to think of something similar. Seatposts spring to mind. Increasing size has deffo made them stiffer IMO.
So why not OS bars? I do notice a bit of flex on std bars, mostly from hoofing it up climbs. Not having OS bars on either bike yet (despite having an OS stem on one of them!), but i see no reason to assume that moving to OS won't increase stiffness.

My carbon bars definitley took away whatever caused tingly hands on long rides.

so one person says stiffer bars transmit less vibration, another thinks more…

Seatposts spring to mind. Increasing size has deffo made them stiffer IMO.

and your point is ?

the fact that you even think that's what it is about reveals your limited understanding of the subject.

ah, classic hinting at arcane knowledge only revealed to the few ?

apart from one assertion of "more betterer", we have nothing yet to establish if increased stiffness matters…

I think the human body is an incredibly sensitive instrument and can detect small changes in many inputs, all of which add up to a sense or feeling of how something is going.

………………………………………………………………..
TJ unfortunately cannot sense when he is wrong, despite all these inputs.

we have nothing yet to establish if increased stiffness matters…

are you a virgin? Stiffness is vital. 8)

I think the human body is an incredibly sensitive instrument and can detect small changes in many inputs

think rather that we can easily imagine things that are not real 🙂

are you a virgin? Stiffness is vital.

stiff as opposed to floppy perhaps, but I think most women would prefer a velvetty knob to a broom handle 🙂

SFB appears to be advocating a new suspension system:

floppy handlebars…

SFB appears to be advocating a new suspension system:

I think it was rather an appeal for appropriate metaphor

ah , classic hinting at arcane knowledge only
revealed to the few ?

Not at all. Less flex in your front end helps you control the bike. To think its just about steering and torsional flex shows you just don't get what the basic issues are.

velvetty knob to a broom handle

A basic misunderstanding there mister SFB, mine is velvety on the outside and like a drive shaft in the middle. Superstar grips give that soft feel.

ah , classic hinting at arcane knowledge only
revealed to the few ?

Not at all. Less flex in your front end helps you control the bike. To think its just about steering and torsional flex shows you just don't get what the basic issues are.

Less flex in your front end helps you control the bike

it's all very well to say that, but if it's only millimetres then it's probably negligible

To think its just about steering and torsional flex shows you just don't get what the basic issues are.

if you imagine there is anything other than those 2 things you are delusional

uh bike twisting along longitudinal axis relative to bars? 🙄

or flex up and down of bars on take off/landing/climbing/pedalling/braking?

uh bike twisting along longitudinal axis relative to bars?

ie not part of the bars at all ? Or do you mean stiffer bars stiffen the frame too?

or flex up and down of bars on take off/landing/climbing/pedalling/braking?

yes,
3) non torsional loading 🙂

Maybe it's noticeable with rigid forks but with suspension there's really no difference that can be felt unless you're changing the material type.

In truth whilst I think the bike industry is packed with marketing guff, I do not think this would have had industry and market wide acceptance without some justification of it benefit. I am 100% confident that OS bars are stiffer, I think I can notice it, and there are some really obvious reason why this is better.

I am sure that over the years bikes have got better at what they do, my 1992 rockhopper does not feel as awesome, over, rooty, jumpy, bermy, bumpy course as my 2009 Mountain cycle battery with totems and oversize everything. All these things are incremental and small things are additive.

carbon bars as they " remove trail buzz" ie they flex

No, they probably do have a greater dampening effect on vibration though, so when they do flex they don't vibrate up and down afterwards.

Bigger clamp area helps as well, big area, lower stress, lower clampng force required.

I cant tell I have standard OS, carbon, and normal. All pretty much point where I tell them to and dont fail under my rigorous riding style.
I cant tell between QR and maxle either for stiffness

When I was involved in motorcycle racing many years ago my technical manager used to say:

"Get a test rider who can feel every little change you make to the bike, and a racer who will go flat out on whatever bike you put him on"

Carbon fibre components tend to have a higher "reflex" than aluminium ones o a similar weight.

The carbon springs back faster (certainly noticeable on windsurf masts) which may equate to better damping.

. I am 100% confident that OS bars are stiffer, I think I can notice it, and there are some really obvious reason why this is better.

such as ?

My experience of STW is that it does not matter what anyone says most on here are of fixed opinions, so think what you like. I'm happy that whatever you want to believe or have faith in is what you have chosen so that is great.

I have some q's and a's (mostly aimed at doubting thomas's SFB n TJ)

1) Can you feel trail buzz? Can you feel a change in road surface through your handlebars? Yes and yes. So small movements of 0.6mm or more will be easy to feel. If the answer is no to any of these then you will not benefit from incremental increases in stiffness so do not waste your money on OS bars/stems.

2) If you want your bike to go in a certain direction it pays if its pointing where you hoped, or if there is any flex which would lead to delay in how fast it gets to where you point it then if that is minimized then it will aid your control. Its all about precision. This is proven by faster and faster times in car/motorcycle/mtb/rollerskate races as chassis stiffness has increased.

3) Resonance – the stiffer a part is the amplitude of any resonant vibrations will be reduced for a given force input. (This is not he same as trail buzz which a stiffer part will make you feel more of, if you can feel it. Less resonance = more controlas its going where you want most of the time, not once every resonant cycle.

Toys – you miusunderstand me.

I am sure OS bars are stiffer. I simply don't believe that makes any significant difference.

You might be able to feel it – I doubt it but its possible
1) Can you feel trail buzz? yes – but this is irrelevant to steering inputs.
2) If you want your bike to go in a certain direction it pays if its pointing where you hoped, ……… car/motorcycle/mtb/rollerskate races as chassis stiffness has increased.

Actually motorcycle frames are now built to flex – too rigid is not helpful. The magnitude of the loadings in steering inputs are so low that I don't believe flex is significant IN STEERING INPUTS

Resonance

Stiff may decrease amplitude but what relevance is thais to steering?

c

Not at all. Less flex in your front end helps you control the bike. To think its just about steering and torsional flex shows you just don't get what the basic issues are.

al – once again you simply fail to see my point then slag me off because of your misunderstanding of the basic point. perhaps once in a while you might believe you can misunderstand

As you are rather hard of thinking I say again

I do believe that steering inputs are of the magnitude that any flex they generate in the bars and stem is insignificant compared to other forces and flex at work.

To think its just about steering and torsional flex shows you just don't get what the basic issues are.

I ask you again – what other issues is it about?

hat it does not matter what anyone says most on here are of fixed opinions

you misunderstand, on this topic I've only seen unsubstantiated conjecture about why stiffer bars might be better. I'm perfectly willing to accept it given a measurable improvements

Can you feel a change in road surface through your handlebars?

I don't ride on the road, so that isn't a useful criterion

If you want your bike to go in a certain direction it pays if its pointing where you hoped

do you understand how steering works ? You apply an input and see what happens, depending on the instantaneous conditions, and modulate your input to get the desired result. For a start, you don't point the bars, and to turn right you push them left (except when nearly stationary)…

Less resonance = more controlas its going where you want most of the time, not once every resonant cycle.

resonance in the entire steering system perhaps, which is quite different to the bars themselves

simonfbarnes – Member
uh bike twisting along longitudinal axis relative to bars?
ie not part of the bars at all ? Or do you mean stiffer bars stiffen the frame too?

Oh FFS. Note "relative to bars". Stiffer bars will…oh I give up. You do well at coming across as a pedantic prick.

As you are rather hard of thinking I say again

I do believe that steering inputs are of the magnitude that any flex they generate in the bars and stem is insignificant compared to other forces and flex at work.

If I understand you (I'm not really sure what you mean) I think I agree.

There are other forces like heaving on the bars while out of the saddle, pushing into corners etc and the one I have mentioned above.

I'm not saying my OS bars make me significantly faster or more in control, it just feels better, and that's enough for me, rather then winning pointless internet arguments.

wayhay – you finally understand the point. Miracles!

'm not saying my OS bars make me significantly faster or more in control, it just feels better,

Different rather than better? Remember some folk like carbon bars for their increased flex.

I'd bet you a tenner that you couldn't tell a difference back to back anyway.

I'm not saying my OS bars make me significantly faster or more in control, it just feels better

What he said, it makes no odds what deflection there is under normal steering inputs, but if the front end feels loose and wobbly you're not particularly inspired to push your limits (or the bikes).

In the same way I went from manitou minutes to magura menja's. The minutes never broke (structuraly) and WhatsHisName won multiple 4x world cups and world championships riding them, but the magura's are much stiffer, and my riding is much better as a result!

tinas

Indeed. Flex in forks is far more significant and easy to see. a fork is a much less rigid structure than a handlebar.

Try holding the wheel between your legs and twisting the bars and see where the flex is visible – loads in the fork, some in the wheel, none in the bars or stem.

uh bike twisting along longitudinal axis relative to bars?

Oh FFS. Note "relative to bars". Stiffer bars will…oh I give up. You do well at coming across as a pedantic prick.

pedantic ?? I cannot work out what your statement means, unless you mean that, if the bars get stiffer, the frame will appear to be more flexible in comparision ? The frame and bars are different components, and the stiffness of one does not influence the stiffness of the other. As far as I can work out, 'relative stiffness' is a useless concept.

it just feels better

but unless you do a double blind test, you cannot know if this isn't just expectation

Try holding the wheel between your legs and twisting the bars and see where the flex is visible – loads in the fork, some in the wheel, none in the bars or stem.

and probably even more in the tyre in actual use 🙂

the stiffness of one does not influence the stiffness of the other. As far as I can work out, 'relative stiffness' is a useless concept.

Has anyone mentioned relative stiffness other than you?

OK I'll spell it out:

Twisting the back wheel relative to the bars, a stiffer handlebar will give less flex overall.

the stiffness of one does not influence the stiffness of the other. As far as I can work out, 'relative stiffness' is a useless concept.

Has anyone mentioned relative stiffness other than you?

Different rather than better? Remember some folk like carbon bars for their increased flex.

I'd bet you a tenner that you couldn't tell a difference back to back anyway.

I said "better".

We will never know – neither of us can prove the other wrong, but it's a fact that os bars are stiffer, and many many things like this on bikes (eg lighter wheels) can easily be felt but can barely be measured.

Al give up trying to enlighten them. I got bored a while back, it really does not even matter, unless you are paid loads of money its just pointless trying to educate those who do not want to be educated.

Quite right, they'll always argue stuff they have little or no experience of.

Oh toys – don't be so offensive! I am listening and sometimes you even have things worth listening to.

We are at cross purposes slightly however but both you and Al are so arrogant and sure of yourselves that you fail believe that sometimes you could misunderstand or be mistaken – as in the "fact" about stiff racing motorcycles when nowadays building in flex is considered critical.

I agree OS bars are stiffer, I agree that you will be alble to feel this in pulling on the bars, I disagree that this is at all relevant to steering as steering inputs are so low in relation to the forces that are needed to produce the flex.
Al – its also clear from this and previous discussions that actually you have no idea on the dynamics of steering.

Twisting the back wheel relative to the bars, a stiffer handlebar will give less flex overall.

hmm, you might as well say "Twisting the Eiffel Tower relative to the bars, a stiffer handlebar will give less flex overall.". Yes if it's stiffer it will flex less. Tautology.

Has anyone mentioned relative stiffness other than you?

viz: 'Oh FFS. Note "relative to bars".'

and many many things like this on bikes (eg lighter wheels) can easily be felt but can barely be measured.

I contend that lighter wheels can be measured with a scale.

but it's a fact that os bars are stiffer

I'm happy to accept that, I'm only asking if it matters.

Al give up trying to enlighten them.

I would love to be enlightened, but handwaving gobbledygook will not achieve it 🙁

I agree OS bars are stiffer, I agree that you will be alble to feel this in pulling on the bars, I disagree that this is at all relevant to steering as steering inputs are so low in relation to the forces that are needed to produce the flex.
Al – its also clear from this and previous discussions that actually you have no idea on the dynamics of steering.

TJ I agree with the highlighted bit – it's other areas that I say os bars affect beneficially.

SFB I started typing but gave up, I just CBA engaging with you.

Al – and thats where you missed my point as I never disagreed with you on that – I was only ever talking about steering. I never even mentioned other aspects.

Folk claim steering is significantly better with OS bars and with a stronger stem. I say this is emperors new clothes.