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Is 'new' stuff poorer quality?

40 posts & 26 voices | Started 1 year ago by Militant_biker | Latest reply from Zappa

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Militant_biker - Member

Just noticed my Time Atac Aliums have shot their bearings/bushings again, probably got about 4 months use out of them, maybe 600 miles. Yes, I know they are the cheapest versions but I'm sure they used to last longer! As in, once upon a time, I had to throw a set away because I wore through the bars - whilst they still had minimal play! These new ones have barely had the anodising worn off.

I noticed the same thing with X7 mechs. When they first came out, they were strong and lasted ages - it was a crash that put paid to them. As time went by they would wear out in a couple of months, forcing me to splash the cash for X0 because it ended up being cheaper

What's that all about then? Are companies forced to downgrade quality to keep things the same price? Do people change parts so often these days it doesn't matter? Am I just getting old and grumpy...?

Posted 1 year ago #
Jamie - Member

I remember when this was all fields....

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Quality of materials has definitely gone downhill in the time I've bin biking. Current Deore, SLX and even some XT is only up to the level of quality of Exage stuff; old Deore and XT were good quality bits, and original XTR was proper nice, as was Camagnolo Centaur (beautiful but heavy) and Suntour XC Pro. Nowt these days matches the quality of that stuff. Stuff now maybe lighter, but it just doesn't last. Costs relatively loads more too.

Stuff is made flimsier and with lower quality materials, so's you replace it more often = more profit for manufacturers. 8, 9, 10 speed, new BB/headset/hub axle standards just a gimmick to get you to replace entire groupsets way more often. Shimano freehubs used to last and last and last; now, they die very quickly. as for BBs; there was nowt actually wrong with square taper, indeed it's a very good solution, but there's loads more money in getting people to fork out £25-30 every year or more, than every 5 years...

Hmm, Centrelock rotors, wonder how long before Shimano introduce another new standard rendering CL obsolete? There was nowt wrong with 6-bolt ISO. Or 5-bolt ATB chainrings, etc, etc....

Posted 1 year ago #
Three_Fish - Member

What's that all about then? Are companies forced to downgrade quality to keep things the same price?

Forced to or choose to. Either way, that's how it appears to me.

An example of this would be Sachs chains. These were fantastic quality when they were made made by Sachs/Sedis, but one of the first things that SRAM did when the bought the company was to use lesser quality materials. Early SRAM chains (after they'd used up the Sachs stock) were really rather poor; and their early reputation reflected this. Modern Avid components feel similarly shoddy compared to older V-brake stuff like Speed Dial and Arch Rival.

Posted 1 year ago #
chakaping - Member

Oh no, I just sold my old, battered but perfectly working Atacs - then realised I needed a pair again and ordered some new ones.

V-brake stuff like Speed Dial

Yeah, they stayed shiny and nice for the whole 10 years or so I had them on my old Marin. Probably still being shiny and nice somewhere now.

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

Come on people, this is ripe for a right old Friday Afternoon ~~discussion~~ ~~debate~~ argument! Could even carry on into the night, with random drunkenness and people's families insulted and all sorts.

Current bikes are overpriced crap and anyone who buys one is a mug....

(Retires to armchair with nice cup of tea and some chocolate digestives)

Posted 1 year ago #
GlitterGary - Member

aND DONT GET ME STARTED ON PAINTWORK!!!! ALL MODERN BIKES SCRATCH TOO EASILY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! aAAAAAAAGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted 1 year ago #
fasthaggis - Member

Current bikes are overpriced crap and anyone who buys one is a mug....

Unless

1/ They have so much money that it doesn't (to them )feel like any big deal.

2/ They are new to biking ,so think it is 'the norm'

3/ They used to do a motor sport ,so cycling seems as cheap as chips.

4/ They get so much fun out of cycling ,that they don't care about the cost or how long bits last.

5/ ?

Posted 1 year ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

there was nowt actually wrong with square taper, indeed it's a very good solution, but there's loads more money in getting people to fork out £25-30 every year or more, than every 5 years...

I never got more than 12 months out of un72's with regular riding, I get comparable from my new hollowtech BB's (SKF bearings in SuperShit shells) and the bearings cost £25, un72's were always more than that!

And tht was on the XC bike, show a square taper BB a jump or drop with less than perfect landing and they just bent!

They also weighed a metric ton being all steel.

The only parts I don't rate are those silly front mechs that swimg from the bottom and go sloppy in a couple of rides, I've a 15yr old XT 'conventional' mech that works just fine. I've a dual pull FSA one on the road bike that looks equaly well made though so maybe its just shimano.

Cranks annoy me though, a fine spline (like shimano HT2) with a gradual taper (like RF x-type) and no pinch bolts (like x-type) is surely the best design, so why isn't it the f***** standard, e-13/chubb have gone for soemthign even sillier looking based on a DIN standard!

Posted 1 year ago #
nomis - Member

My 1999 Rockshox Judys are still going strong whilst my 2007 Fox 36's don't work in the cold and require a weekly service.

Posted 1 year ago #
Zappa - Member

I've just fitted a 'new old stock' LX 9 speed front mech, rear mech and shifters to a bike and am amazed at the quality compared to SLX. Sure, LX kit might weigh a little more but I'm sure it'll last a hell of a lot longer.

The age old saying, 'They don't make em like they used to' certainly rings true here.

Posted 1 year ago #
Militant_biker - Member

Ah good - it's not just me then

UN** bottom brackets - can't comment on them - never worn one out! But if it's HT2, Shimano XT, those lasted me about 3 months. But they have always done that to me so they don't count.

It makes me glad I have some old bits squirrelled away for future 'projects' Hope SS screw on hub c.1996, Hope Mono Ti front hub c.1994. Pace RC30's and RC31's. In fact, the front hub on my SS these days is a Hope for their first mechanical disc brake. And it's outlasting the White Industries on the back so far.

Posted 1 year ago #
PeterPoddy - Member

I've got an old STX mech in the garage. I'd say it's better made than the new XT or X9 on our bikes. It just feels solid and chunky.

Original 8sp XT was the best Shimano ever made IMO

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

the bearings cost £25, un72's were always more than that!

Really? I've never paid more than about £25 for a UN72/3.

I never got more than 12 months out of un72's with regular riding

I've got a 'cheapo' Shimano UN52 BB in my commuter, it's about 15 years old possibly more, and gets hammered in all weathers, and neglected. Still running smooth. I've never had an issue with any Un BB. Bending? Well, if you will fall off your bike, then what do you expect? BTW, my 15+ yo one has been in many a crash, and is still perfectly straight. It's like Top Gear's Toyota truck, it simply will not die.

They also weighed a metric ton being all steel.

No they din't. The hollow UN72 ones din't weigh that much. I'd rather have 100g extra weight in an area where it's effect on the bike's performance and handling is negligible, and reliability, than light weight failing regularly.

New stuff is like washing machines and stuff like that; designed with built in obsolescence, which will fail the day after it's warranty runs out (if it hasn't already).

XTR-only proprietary replacement parts, anyone? Thus preventing you from using (usually cheaper) 3rd party bits?

How many components are there out there, what are now virtually useless in spite of being structurally sound, because Shimano have stopped producing spare parts for that particular model? How long did Octalink last?

Posted 1 year ago #
sofatester - Member

I've got an old STX mech in the garage

I used to have STX-RC so there!

It was brilliant and shiny. I still remember seeing the reflection of the chainrings on the road as i span along.

Never remember having to change anything either, apart from a couple of brake blocks and cables after a winter (summer) of riding.

Posted 1 year ago #
Militant_biker - Member

I bought an new-old-stock XTR front mech in about 1998, I think it was about 1996 vintage. Lovely piece of kit, looked awesome and was crisp as ice - worked flawlessly until I swapped bikes in 2003. I then sold it on in 2006 for as much as I paid for it.

STX RC I'd have been well jealous of you!

Posted 1 year ago #
uwe-r - Member

I think Component / Frame / Fork design is not getting much better i.e. it might have peaked. If you look at say 00 to 05 stuff moved a long way in terms of how well it all worked but if you then look at 06 high end stuff it's not far of what you can get now.

Just like razor blades. once you get to 4 blades where else can you go. 140 travel for xc = 4 blades.

Posted 1 year ago #
xiphon - Member

My monsters = 1999
My 222 = 2002
My Patriot = 2000
My 521 rims on 222 = 2000-ish
My M4s = 2002-ish
My 5-bolt Hope Bulb = 2000-ish

Old kit, working perfectly well, and no sign of failure yet!

Posted 1 year ago #
brakes - Member

right, I don't have rose-tinted specs like some of you...
you might remember those occasional bits of kit that lasted for ever, but how much stuff was there which exploded into its constituent parts at the mere sight of a twig?
stuff now is much more advanced, more complex and weighs less - stuff tends to wear out rather than break like it used to and it tends to be the consumable parts like bearings and bushings.
and square taper BBs and cranks were the only things I used to break - cranks seizing to the axle, axles breaking, the connection between the axle and the cranks wearing or becoming damaged and writing off the cranks and they're not nearly as stiff as external BBs.
gears never used to work, chains would snap... suspension would seize

Posted 1 year ago #
sofatester - Member

right, I don't have rose-tinted specs like some of you...
you might remember those occasional bits of kit that lasted for ever, but how much stuff was there which exploded into its constituent parts at the mere sight of a twig?
stuff now is much more advanced, more complex and weighs less - stuff tends to wear out rather than break like it used to and it tends to be the consumable parts like bearings and bushings.
and square taper BBs and cranks were the only things I used to break - cranks seizing to the axle, axles breaking, the connection between the axle and the cranks wearing or becoming damaged and writing off the cranks and they're not nearly as stiff as external BBs.
gears never used to work, chains would snap... suspension would seize

La La La

I can't hear you!

Posted 1 year ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

I've got a 'cheapo' Shimano UN52 BB in my commuter, it's about 15 years old possibly more, and gets hammered in all weathers, and neglected. Still running smooth. I've never had an issue with any Un BB. Bending? Well, if you will fall off your bike, then what do you expect? BTW, my 15+ yo one has been in many a crash, and is still perfectly straight. It's like Top Gear's Toyota truck, it simply will not die.

Mine last ages on the road too, my last un72 one has done 10,000miles on the road bike and still fine. On the MTB it was another matter, Peaks grit and wet Mid Wales hollidays saw off my square taper BB's. £25 10 years ago was more than £25 today, it's called inflation. Square taper was a hangover from road bikes, just like QR front wheels are becoming.

Never broke it falling off either, this was just pissing about at the BMX track, overshot a landing, controlled it fine, but the pedals wouldn't turn round, never had that happen with HT style cranks. Also see a lot less snapped cranks since everyone went 2-piece.

Posted 1 year ago #
bellerophon - Member

V-brake stuff like Speed Dial

Yeah, they stayed shiny and nice for the whole 10 years or so I had them on my old Marin. Probably still being shiny and nice somewhere now

On my Marin??

Obviously not but my Marin road bike (flat bars) has Avids on and working and looking fantastic 8 years on... in fact so are the hubs,mechs,shifters,bb with very little attention, I know it doesn't get as grotty as an mtb but still...

Posted 1 year ago #
Zappa - Member

I build a commuter for my other half (1998 Kona Lava Dome frame) and fitted a full STX-RC groupset which I'd had lying around in the garage. For the past 3 years she has commuted 5 miles a day in all weathers, on road and through an often muddy forest. Maintenance wise, if it gets dirty she sprays on a bit of Muc Off, hoses it down and lubes the chain.

In 3 years I've replaced the brake blocks a few times, lubed the cables, adjusted the gears and it runs and rides perfectly. I wonder if a more modern drivetrain would have lasted so well with so so much abuse and little maintenance.

A big thumbs up for STX-RC from me

Posted 1 year ago #
jimification - Member

I do like some of the innovations that have come along: The Hollowtech 2 design really works well for me (even if it is just an aheadset turned sideways) - lightweight, strong and easy to maintain. Of course I'm rather less impressed with the liquorice Shimano BB that goes with it - That thing is an absolute joke: 4-6 months those were lasting and clearly not fit for purpose at all. Thank god Hope came along and made a proper one - Thank you guys.

I don't mind shelling out for expensive kit but it has to be up to the job. There's some great stuff around but too much of it is just disposable. I'd argue that it's not even ethical for companies to produce gear with this kind of "throw away" mindset. Besides, If I'm paying £100 and up for a rear mech, it better be rebuildable and you better have all the replacement parts available for it too.

Posted 1 year ago #
chakaping - Member

even if it is just an aheadset turned sideways

Interesting comment. Would be cool if you could fit headsets with HT2 tools!

Posted 1 year ago #
sofatester - Member

If I'm paying £100 and up for ~~a rear mech~~ anything on a bike, it better be rebuildable and you better have all the replacement parts available for it too.

If only that where true.

Posted 1 year ago #
noteeth - Member

Some kit stands the test of time.

My 1993 (cup n' cone) Shimano XTR hubs are still going strong, as are my old Deore XT Thumbshifters. I'm still happily riding a steel frame with a 1 inch threaded headset & a quill stem - though I am due to join the modern world in the next few days.

Mind you, I've just bought a new pair of ATACs... hope this thread isn't an omen!

Posted 1 year ago #
Elfinsafety - Member

They're already borked, Noteeth.

Posted 1 year ago #
scu98rkr - Member

The new hollowtech II system is obviously better for the axle/crank interface. But obviously worse due to the fact the bearings are mounted externally.

No one is saying the old UN** bottom brackets axles used to bend but do a bit of jumping and the left crank arm would round off very very quickly.

Personally I prefer the new system, but the hollowtech I system was probably perfect for me. It could stand up to the amount of jumping I did and the internal bearins lasted well.

But if you do less jumping the square taper would be a better system and if you did more jumping the HTII better.

Really what they needed to do was accept Bottom Bracket shells were just too small in like 2000 when HTI was appearing and try to move over to a new system, but obviously 1 people dont like changes that make their frame obsolete and 2 companies can make more money from increment changes.

Around 2000 or earlier they should just of gone right we need a larger BB a larger Head Tube for bigger headsets and we're going to make Bar/Stems interfaces larger as well as having 15mm axles front and back on the wheels. And just done it all in one go.

Posted 1 year ago #
traildog - Member

I would never get a year out of a UN bottom bracket. I have also damaged the cranks with them. I really think people have rose tinted specs when it comes to square taper brackets.
I had original X9 (not X7) and it was worse than cheese. Jockey wheels siezed after one wet ride and play developed in the mech after not very long at all.
I personally think bike parts as a whole have got much better and last longer. When new things appear they sometimes have a bad year, such as 9 speed, which led to the impression that 8 speed was the definite right number of gears to have.

Posted 1 year ago #
thisisnotaspoon - Member

No one is saying the old UN** bottom brackets axles used to bend

errr....... yes, I definately said that.

Posted 1 year ago #
ahwiles - Member

i enjoy the 'sound' of a new bike, or rather, the silence.

new bikes are tight and rattle-free, i remember how this silence would slowly be replaced by a death-rattle of shonkiness over time.

no matter how hard i tried, i could never get that 'new sound' back.

but now, even my old shagged bikes sound new - there's no rattle or play.

new bikes are brilliant - except anything with a 15mm front axle and or 10 speed, obviously.

Posted 1 year ago #
BillOddie - Member

The sweet spot was about 2004 for me, stuff I'm still running from then include the 1st Saint Disc brake calipers (with XT levers), Marzocchi FR SLs (need to be serviced actually as I have bushing slop after another 2 years of service.), LX Shifters, XT front mech.

Also I think other stuff from that era is harder wearing, I have an Osprey daypack I used for commuting, riding around the alps and big day rides from 2002 or so and it's been totally faultless and still is as good as new.

Shimano SPD cleats also used to last the life of the shoes tehy were in, not the case anymore, new set every year if not more often assuming the shoes don't fall apart too.

UN** square taper BBs and SqT cranks were fine as long as you kept your wheel on the ground and were a typical 10st cyclist. Otherwise they were rubbish.

Modern headsets with proper bearings are ace though.

Posted 1 year ago #
ac282 - Member

The problem with HTII is that it is not a clean slate design. Bearings are external due to having to be compatible with old fashioned BB shells.

A system something like BB30 makes far more sense as it would allow a combination of strong axle and decent sized bearings mounted internally.

Does anyone have any experience of the bearing life on the BB90 system?

Posted 1 year ago #
kaesae - Member

Yeah I agree that the build quality isn't what it once was, MTBing is becoming more about flashing the cash and less about biking.

How else could you explain how much better my bearings are than almost every other company out there, I live in a 1 bedroom flat with a workshop/research thingy for a living room

The simple fact is the shorter the life span of the product/component the more replacements you will sell. People keep asking me WTF I,m doing trying to make things last as long as possible.

I enjoy improving things, it's just like fixing bikes or tuning them up, who wants to have an average attempt, when you can do the best you can

That said, my bike is working perfectly and I'm going off out for a ride.

Posted 1 year ago #