Last week, i had to go to pick my Mum up from the train station in Reading, as we couldn’t get a direct train.

I’ve not been to Reading for over 20 years. And it turns out, on leaving, i drove along an (empty) bus lane for approx 50m. A bus lane covered by CCTV and an enforcement camera………..

As a result of my mistake (it was my mistake, i didn’t see the sign) i’m now a few quid lighter, and as a result, have a very poor opinion of Reading.

So, it got me thinking.

Back in the old days, if a real Policeman had seen me make the same mistake, does anyone think the outcome would have been the same? I just can’t see it. I’d have appologies, admitted i was wrong, and got out of the (still empty) Bus Lane immediately. I’m going to suggest that the result of my mistake, in that case would have been a few stern words and that’s that.

But these days, Machine Justice has to be “black and White”. You break the Letter of the Law, you get fined. It can’t tell if you’re an unfortunately person making a very rare small mistake in an unfamiliar town, or a serial abuser of the system, deliberately trying to break the law to there advantage. it’s just “bang, here’s you fine” and your done. No opportunity to apply leniency or to establish the precise circumstances before the penalty is handed down.

And, imo, all this Machine Justice does is to undermine and devalue our laws. Sensible rules designed, like Bus Lanes, to keep our traffic systems flowing, suddenly become “all powerfull” and there is no really opportunity to challenge the Penalty (sure, you could fight it in the law courts, but lets be honest, who’s going to do that over £30??).

As we slide more and more towards a totally machine justice and law enforcement, i can see a large backlash and a ground swell of anger, that wouldn’t have happened if “real” people where handing out the penalties?

What do people think ❓

Will you be more vigilant and err on the side of caution in future?

I don’t have much of an issue with “machine justice” CCTV and cameras in general are a normal part of our justice system now, we’d be mad to allow crimes to go unpunished just because it was recorded electronically rather than by Plod on the Beat.

I do though have an issue with the assumption of guilt, it’s almost unique to motoring offences thankfully – but “innocent until proven guilty” is a cornerstone of our justice system and one we’ve set aside for convinence and cost. I wouldn’t want it expanded into other things.

I dredd that sort of justice.

What if that bus lane had been a cyclist?

It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead…….. Or it’ll fine you thirty quid. Whatever.

Didn’t see the signs? A real copper might’ve had you for Driving Without Due Care and Attention.

I don’t disagree in principle. As a random example, there’s a world of difference between habitually speeding everywhere and accidentally exceeding the limit for a second during an overtake where you’re busy concentrating on the manoeuvre, but a camera makes no such distinction.

I’ve been caught by bus lane cameras also. Got busted at 6:58 for a 7:00 cutoff. In that situation a policeman might’ve gone “fair enough mate,” perhaps?

I do though have an issue with the assumption of guilt, it’s almost unique to motoring offences thankfully – but “innocent until proven guilty” is a cornerstone of our justice system and one we’ve set aside for convinence and cost. I wouldn’t want it expanded into other things.

I agree with this, but as driving a car and making mistakes often leads to injury I’m prepared to let it go and punch mistakes more harshly than we maybe would at other times. Saying that, there should also be time for the driver to pick up on his initial mistake and correct it before being punished if it’s a common mistake due to bad design etc.

What if that bus lane had been a cyclist?

What? flat, empty, perfectly motionless and looking a lot like a road? Yeah, useful point you make there…

There was a presumption of guilt because you were driving in a bus lane when you shouldn’t have been. Harsh but true?

The REAL problem with our current system of automated justice dispensers is that they’re really easy to totally avoid, unlike pesky real bobbies. It’s dead easy to speed 98% of the time when you know where the speed cams are. It’s easy to dodge parking fines if the car isn’t registered in your name. Insurance? Optional if you don’t mind abandoning or just driving away from incidents and dumping the car later. It’s like bangernomics with a twist of immorality. Saves a fortune, screw everyone else.

Did you consider writing a letter explaining to the humans at the other end ? I did for my secretary when she went through a bus gate they dropped the penalty .

Thing is, i am (generally) a very observant driver.

I drive tens of thousands of miles per year, all around the world. I’ve been driving for very nearly 25 years (without any incidents). But i’m human, i made a mistake. I wasn’t “Looking” for Bus lanes (especially not short 50 yard ones). The road was totally empty, had there been a cyclist i’d have seen them. All i missed was the small signs saying “bus lane” on the road.

But i’m not excusing my actions. Hands up, I F’d up. What I am disturbed by is that we seem to be heading to a society where our basic laws are upheld by machines, rather than people.

Lets face it, everything is shades of grey, even if the law has to be black and white. Which is why we need HUMANS to uphold those laws and not machines!

So whilst the law says “use a bus lane in a car, and you get fined” is sensible on average, it cannot possibly account for every possible individual situation. Which is where the ability of a human to be able to interpret that law becomes critical imo.

I drive tens of thousands of miles per year, all around the world. I’ve been driving for very nearly 25 years (without any incidents). But i’m human, i made a mistake. I wasn’t “Looking” for Bus lanes (especially not short 50 yard ones). The road was totally empty, had there been a cyclist i’d have seen them. All i missed was the small signs saying “bus lane” on the road.

SMIDSY.

Cougar –
Didn’t see the signs? A real copper might’ve had you for Driving Without Due Care and Attention

Do you really think so? I never exceeded 15mph, the road in all directions was empty. Had a Bus turned up, i’d have been back on the non bus lane bit before they even got to where i was. I cannot believe a Policeman would have done any more than give me a bit of a chat and sent me on my way.

Ironically, about two mins later, on the A4, i let a Bus out of it’s stop when no other car was letting it out. Well, you know what, next time, i’m not letting any busses out. I’ll apply my own machine justice and block em in for all i’m worth…….

(and that^^^ is the sort of situation that anger causes, and why the more you rely on machine justice, the more people get alienated by our laws, and the more they get devalued.)

captainsasquatch

SMIDSY.

TBH, i spend my time looking for vulnerable road users like Cyclists, and pedestrians, rather than small inert and largely pointless road signage.

Captainsasquatch – member highhorserider

FTFY.

But why is entering a bus lane a crime, really? Nobody seems to realise that driving into a bus lane for a few yards to pass a stationary vehicle turning across a probably busy oncoming lane of traffic allows the traffic to continue flowing freely, whereas having to stop behind the stationary vehicle for what might be several minutes does nothing but clog up the transport system.
The machines dictate it’s a crime, and has to be punished at all costs, whereas common sense says that keeping traffic flowing is more important.
And the cyclist thing is just a straw man argument: makes no odds if the cyclist is riding along on a regular road or one with a bus lane, he/she could be just as easily hit by a bus or taxi in the bus lane as by a bus/taxi/car/truck on a regular road.
Or do buses and taxis magically take on the gossamer properties of rainbow unicorns when they travel in a bus lane?

it’s not just the dispensing of instant justice, it’s everything and getting worse.
“Computer says no”

There was a fascinating article about all of this on radio 4 I heard a while ago, someone had written a book about it, but I sadly can’t remember the details.

Essentially decision making, judgement, reason, is increasingly handed over to technology or at best a human following a strict process (led by a machine), and as a result making society less empathetic, less….human.

v8ninety – Member

Captainsasquatch – memberhighhorserider

FTFY
If that means that I’m not not stupid enough to be caught breaking the law then whinging about being caught, then yes, I’m on a 30yr clean licence, 30,000 mile per year high horse. 🙄

I agree with the OPs sentiment here, but come at it from the other end, so to speak.

Someone driving that section of the road next to the bus lane, chatting on their hand held mobile, or passing dangerously close to a (hypothetical) cyclist wouldn’t be picked up by the camera, but does deserve at minimum a chat from a copper.

In fact if more people were shamed into acknowledging their own behaviour after a word from authority then I believe driving standards would be higher. No heavy handed revenue generating automatic fines, just the application of the existing driving rules and laws.

If firmly believe many folk think it’s ok to talk on mobiles while driving. I think that it’s the mostly likely way to accidentally maim someone, and have to live with that on your conscience. I only wish that society took the view of those doing it that they now do on drink driving, which is no longer socially acceptable.

Er, i’m not winging about being caught! Read my OP, i admit i was wrong. What i do DISAGREE with is the way the crime is processed.

Lets take a different example: Speed limits.

Take the 70mph speed limit on a motorway. Why is is 70mph? Because ON AVERAGE, the Law suggests that this is a safe and sensible speed to be travelling in that zone. But, even if you say did 100mph for a short period you are still highly unlikely to crash.

In the old days, a policeman could use their judgement, so the LETTER OF THE LAW didn’t have to be perfectly targeted. It’s quite clear that doing say 85mph on a clear empty motorway is a different matter to say weaving between lanes cutting other drivers up on a busy Mway at the same 85mph. But a machine can’t tell the difference. Which forces the spot light directly onto our Laws and how they are set.

The more we rely on machines, the more we loose the ability to apply, act and uphold those laws in an appropriate way. (imo)

If that means that I’m not not stupid enough to be caught breaking the law then whinging about being caught, then yes, I’m on a 30yr clean licence, 30,000 mile per year high horse.

interesting phraseology. Not ‘stupid enough to break the law’, you said; ‘stupid enough to get caught breaking the law’… Kinda makes my point about the real problem with automated motoring offence justice. You’re just good (lucky?) at dodging justice, aren’t you? 😉

£30 quid is just a gentle reminder of your responsibilities on the road.

I would like to see more of that level of fine automated, say for speeding, 30 quid fine but no points if you are caught in that zone between the speed limit and what is normally deemed the speed you would currently be booked at, accrue a few in an 18 month period then it becomes a much bigger fine and points. Then stick speeding cameras all over the place in residential areas.

The problem is we have become very normalised breaking motoring laws and tend to get all whataboutery because there is worse. Maybe enforcing the basics would decrease the more dangerous stuff.

£30 quid is just a gentle reminder of your responsibilities on the road.

I don’t disagree with the principle of what you suggest, but it basically discriminates disproportionately against the poorer end of society. £30 to some is feeding kids for a week, or not having to go to payday loan companies, to me it would be an annoyance, to others a joke. It would be almost a green light to not worry about a little bit of extra speed if you are well off.

You’re good at dodging justice, aren’t you?

You’re smart, aren’t you?
The high horse comment was a dig at the holier than though, god like drivers that never do wrong. I take exception to that sort of puerile comment.
Still stands that we can all use the SMIDSY get out of jail free card. If you’re stupid enough to get caught, don’t embarrass yourself by trying to say it’s the method of applying the law that’s wrong.

So, you broke the rules, but expect someone to let you off, because you want to be let off?

I got caught by bus lane cameras in Reading, didn’t see any signs at all. Would expect a friendly copper to let me off though. I did it, I cough up. It wasn’t a lot of money. Same as when I parked on single yellows at the wrong time.

Take the 70mph speed limit on a motorway. Why is it 70mph?

Because that’s the speed and ensuing energy the street furniture is designed to withstand. The Armco will keep you on the correct side of the road and all that sort of stuff.

Whether the fixtures were designed to resist this first or the limit came first I don’t know & can’t be bothered to check Google for an answer.

I’m fairly sure that they aren’t going to replace all the armco if and when they put the limit up to 80 though…

Sandwich
Because that’s the speed and ensuing energy the street furniture is designed to withstand. The Armco will keep you on the correct side of the road and all that sort of stuff.

er, nope. The 70 mph speed limit came in well before armco was even invented! It was fairly arbitrarily chosen to suit the typical family cars of the era, where they could just about cruise at 70mph as a maximum, but to limit people with cars like E types doing 130mph down the M1……..

Besides, a 30 tonne HGV doing 56mph has a KE of 9.3GJ, so in my 1600kg car i could do 242mph!!

maxtorque – Member
What do people think

The jobworth and ZM bureaucrats use the rules as an end to justify their existence. They have no sympathy whatsoever because at the end of the day they blame the rules. You cannot find someone who is accountable. No you don’t. The CEO? They know f-all about minor stuffs the fines are peanuts.

Ya, if you try to vote/create more ZM bureaucrats that’s what you get. The rules become absolute in themselves and nobody dare to alter it or got the guts to change it for common sense.

Ya, just like EU when the rules are set in place … you try to challenge them and see how far you get.

All the rules are so rigid you only “wake up” when you feel like doing a self suffocation …

🙄

edit: yes, it’s making the law looks stooopid.

The 70 limit, is the limit they came up with in the 60s. There was probably a sound reason for making it 70 and not 80 or 60, but no one seems to remember it.

You’d think that with all the various advances in vehicles technology it would creep up to say 80 – after all ABS and modern brakes have slashed braking distances, conversely roads were a whole lot quieter in the 60s – to get the sort of traffic you’d see in rush hour in the 60s now, you’d need to be driving at 3am or something so you might suspect it might have dropped a various points – but no, it’s been the same since they first limited the motorways.

‘As it goes’ it’s not a bad limit really – a decent compromise between fuel efficiency and actually getting places in decent time. Yeah the French limit of 82 is better for that slog between Calais and Morzine, shaves more than an hour off – but it knocks MPG by 10%.

Nobody seems to realise that driving into a bus lane for a few yards to pass a stationary vehicle turning across a probably busy oncoming lane of traffic allows the traffic to continue flowing freely,

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that you won’t be penalised for this; rather, you’ll be fined for travelling in the bus lane rather than briefly dipping into it to avoid stationary traffic. Kinda like crossing solid whites.

You’d think that with all the various advances in vehicles technology it would creep up to say 80 – after all ABS and modern brakes have slashed braking distances

The argument given on the speed awareness course is that thinking distance hasn’t changed. Not convinced I agree with the logic but that’s what they say.

I’d be asking what’s the point of a 50yard bus lane tbh? sounds more like a bus stop to me, and to have a camera on to makes it appear as a potential cash cow for the non locals.
There’s one near me that’s about 150yards no camera buts it’s just utterly pointless about half a dozen busses with get past about ten cars in the morning rush hour out if the local town other than that it’s just pointless. I can’t see it was worth the paint and signs to the council\busses. However a decent bit of cycling infrastructure there would be helpful to a lot more imo

Cougar – Moderator
You’d think that with all the various advances in vehicles technology it would creep up to say 80 – after all ABS and modern brakes have slashed braking distances

The argument given on the speed awareness course is that thinking distance hasn’t changed. Not convinced I agree with the logic but that’s what they say.[/quote]
I think simply no matter what you do to make cars safer the biggest danger is still located between the seat and the steering wheel.

Anyway love these threads the it’s not fair that I got caught thing brings out the best in people. It could also be said that human justice dispensed by people who can be manipulated and controlled.
As an alternative I got pulled for speeding a couple of times down here in Tasmania. Both times not paying attention to changing limits. Both got a warning, you get 1 warning up to a certain level every 3 years after that it’s a fine. Getting the letter that confirms what the fine and points would have been is a good reminder.

I expect that most of us have come close to some sort of infringement, especially in a large town that they don’t know particularly well

It doesn’t necessarily make you a bad driver, just a potential source of revenue
Here’s an example from Birmingham that’s worth reading (awful pun) for the councillor’s comments

I’d like more machine justice, I’d also like a lot more thought going into road design. The current trend of reducing speed limits and painting the road lots of colours isn’t reducing congestion or pollution or making the roads safer. It’s having the opposite effect on all counts, traffic is congested, if you’re new to the road it’s often confusing and the arbitrary nature of many of the traffic calming measures means locals become more used to not obeying the law, both of which make the streets less safe..

I’ve heard (from someone involved in research in this sort of thing) that modern real world stopping distances have increased, or certainly not decreased. Modern cars cut off drivers from the surroundings so well that we pay less attention than we used to, when something goes wrong it takes longer to notice, longer to realise how serious it is and then longer to react.

As for ‘machine justice’, it’s for a handful of traffic laws, the cameras are an addition to real police officers, not a replacement. Do you really think if they turn off 100 red light cameras they’ll instantly replace them with 600 (so 100 on the roads at any one time) traffic officers? I’d rather the mundane stuff was dealt with by cameras anyway. If your officers are tied up pulling people over for bus lane/speeding offences all day then they’re more likely to miss the drunks, unlicensed, uninsured etc. Taking the low level stuff away from them let’s then focus on the more dangerous offences. I suspect “i’ve got more important things to do” is a big part of the “discretion” shown by police.

I think the op has a point. Maybe it wouldn’t be valid if machine justice was used to supplement person justice but it’s not. For parking/ traffic, it’s replaced it. There are significantly fewer traffic cops than there used to be.

Stuff that they can tag a kpi to has “improved” on the spreadsheet (and balance sheet) like speeding or parking but no one cares about using their mobile in the car, or tailgating, or punishment passes or ignoring dyl in non patrolled areas because they know the machines aren’t coming from them.

People’s attitudes have shifted from caring about right/wrong to what can be proven/gotten away with.

I was rear ended on the A1 yesterday in queuing traffic, fortunately no damage but the old duffer who drove into me looked blankly at me when I got out and saw our cars in contact. I pointed to it, he reversed a foot, got out and then said, “in no where near you, there’s a massive gap”. I’m guessing that with no machines around to provide evidence, he default mentality is that no one can prove its him.