[Closed] is buying a diesel car a wrong choice?

As long as it's a Skoda you're fine.

If you don't decide on a car soon I'm going to bloody well buy one for you.

Fine.

Unless it's an older diesel, it's not like it's going to get scrapped. Which means that, until they're pulled off the road, we might as well drive them responsibly.

At least that's what I told myself when I bought 'a very nice condition low mileage suitable vehicle' just before Christmas.

Depends..if you do a lot of miles it could make sense, but diesels command a higher price, can be finicky if not doing a lot of miles, and will probably get taxed heavier in future.

So you need to do the maths really.

I think it would depend on your intended use. If you're going to be pootling about town, I personally would avoid a diesel if I had the choice.

But for up and down the motorway, crack on.

If you don't decide on a car soon I'm going to bloody well buy one for you.

lol........have you ever tried buying a car to suit a 5ft lady and a 6ft 4'' gorilla?
it is not a easy task.

'Tend' to get much better mileage than equivalent petrols (YMMliterallyV). But also kill more baby robins and children's faces, as well as caring more and being more complicated than their petrol counterparts. Pays your money and takes your choice. I reckon for anything over 12k miles a year, they are a no brainer. Someone will be along in a minute to disagree...

Depends on whether you have any respect for the health of your fellow citizens. Diesels now have particle filters that only stop the big particles and let the most dangerous fine stuff though.

France used to be the home of the diesel but new sales have just dropped below 50%. The health message is getting through, the bans on even quite recent diesel in Paris hurting pockets, and which would you honestly rather drive?

Buy a Berlingo and be done with it. Fit you and your bikes. 5'1" wife's daily drive. Handles like a barge though.

tried a berlingo multispace today......far too small
tried a kia soul, ace driving space, crap tiny boot
tried a skoda yeti, good allround, but too pricy

Ok if the Berlingo is to small try a Mercedes estate auto and waft around that's what I chose lovely place to be in.

Ton , what will be annual mileage? What is a daily trip like? Is it 2 miles or 70 miles?

Skoda roomster worth a look.

Nvm

looked at a romster....no thanks.
mileage is a about 10k tops. some long trips though.

I would go petrol, the mileage does not warrant diesel, mpg on petrol is far better now, no complex dpf to mess around with nor go wrong.

Honda civic? Lots of room with the rear seats down.
Seat Altea...Lots of room nice to drive but everything that could go wrong did...It was diesel.
Audi 4 estate...?

When it comes time to replace the old Octavia, I'll probably go petrol, mainly because of low-mileage issues with DPF's and such like, I avoid using the car for short runs as much as possible now, because of the turbo clogging up and it going into limp-mode; talk of cities like Bristol clamping down on diesels entering the city don't help, because I drive into the centre for gigs, there being no practical public transport alternative.

[quote=vondally ]I would go petrol, the mileage does not warrant diesel, mpg on petrol is far better now, no complex dpf to mess around with nor go wrong.

This, 10k mileage, get a petrol.

If its only a shopping trolley then dont bother. If its going to get used so its gets warm then all's ok. Just drive it hard in Sports mode and it will be no bother.

How long before Leeds brings in its ban on polluting vehicles ?

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/politics/leeds-to-get-congestion-charge-for-gas-guzzling-vehicles-1-7629904

Just drive it hard in Sports mode and it will be no bother.

Or buy a petrol and bumble around happily without being an anti-social... .

How long before Leeds brings in its ban on polluting vehicles ?

about the same length of time it takes to get the super tram running........ 😆

car wont be used for short daily driving...i cycle everywhere. it will be used to travel the length of the uk and europe, so we can cycle tour further afield.

Birmingham are going to be charging diesel drivers to enter the city. This is how it will start. I think it is time to get out of diesel engines in favour of efficient modern petrols or electric.

Unless you don't need to drive into city centres, in which case wait a year and take your pick of cheap diesels being off-loaded by people regretting their previous choice.

I was considering buying a new car recently and have always liked/had diesels but it is becoming increasingly obvious that they are being singled out so I wouldn't like to spend a lot of money on one ( I will probably keep mine as I don't really need a new one). I would either buy a cheap diesel or a petrol as I think diesels could be taxed off the road in the future.

How about a Citroen DS5? Lovely place to be, great choice of engines and fairly cheap at a year old.

car wont be used for short daily driving...i cycle everywhere. it will be used to travel the length of the uk and europe, so we can cycle tour further afield.

Petrol not diesel.

May be wrong but there seems to be lots of chatter in the press about diesel restrictions in cities and significant rises in charges for having them - can't imagine that will happen quickly but how long you planning on keeping the car?

If they really do start banning diesels from city centres then the shit really will hit the fan . Virtually every lorry or delivery van is diesel and when did the petrol engine become environmentally friendly anyhow ?

If they really do start banning diesels from city centres then the shit really will hit the fan . Virtually every lorry or delivery van is diesel

I would imagine they would get round that by banning/ taxing private cars that were diesels to start with

I'd stick to a diesel. I can't be arsed changing plugs, points, condensers, rotor arms & distributor caps when they conk out, not to mention setting the dwell angle!

Jim.......great minds old cock. purchase made, pick it up next saturday.

Jim.......great minds old cock. purchase made, pick it up next saturday.

Mint! Picking ours up on Thursday!

ton - Member
If you don't decide on a car soon I'm going to bloody well buy one for you.
lol........have you ever tried buying a car to suit a 5ft lady and a 6ft 4'' gorilla?

My in-laws are 5' and 6' 7" tall.
They have a Kia C'eed which suits them fine, is fairly well specked and been completely reliable for the 3 years they've had it...

I recently sold our Skoda Fabia diesel.

Simply not driving enough miles, if you are driving say 15,000 per year, then not too bad a choice (ignoring the impact on the environment).

Nearly bought a petrol engined car with a proper cam chain, to stop all the issues around dpf, DMF etc.

Electric car fits the bill for us, but won't suit everyone if their driving habits require frequent charging etc.

Wouldn't entertain a diesel engined car again, mainly on environmental issues.

I've just changed my car and bought another diesel, I do 20k + a year so had to be diesel really as mpg was top of my priorities.

I always buy older ones as they're more reliable with none of that Dpf rubbish to go wrong, not really a fan of cars built in the last 10 years as nearly everything is a potentially big garage bill as nothing is built to last anymore.

I do 20k miles a year but it's all twisty country lanes. My current Ford Kuga diesel has already cost me £800+ in DPF issues. Mileage alone is not the only thing you need to consider- it's the nature of the journey. If you're on motorway for at least 30mins a month at constant 2k rpm then diesel is ok.

Seriously considering a petrol Kuga as my next car (yes I need a big car, the clue is in the username)

esselgruntfuttock - Member
I'd stick to a diesel. I can't be arsed changing plugs, points, condensers, rotor arms & distributor caps when they conk out, not to mention setting the dwell angle

I'm hoping this was tongue in cheek as other than the plugs, none of these are present in a modern car.

I do 20k miles a year but it's all twisty country lanes. My current Ford Kuga diesel has already cost me £800+ in DPF issues. Mileage alone is not the only thing you need to consider- it's the nature of the journey. If you're on motorway for at least 30mins a month at constant 2k rpm then diesel is ok.

Maybe luck of the draw but approaching 10 years of school runs with once a month m/way and no issues here with our Kuga.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Adblue yet. Don't all new diesels with Euro6 engines use Adblue? The recent reports regarding diesel cars producing more pollution than buses and wagons is because buses and wagons have been using Adblue for sometime. Any Adblue experts on here know how effective it is?

Depends on whether you have any respect for the health of your fellow citizens. Diesels now have particle filters that only stop the big particles and let the most dangerous fine stuff though.

Caution, troll alert.

All cars produce NOx. All cars produce particulate emissions. Historically diesel cars produced way more than petrol vehicles but Euro 6 standards actually require both engines to meet the same restrictions. In some respects this helps swing the balance in favour of petrol engines because it has a significant impact on diesel fuel economy.

The reality is that the pollution in London is more to do with vast amounts of slow moving traffic as opposed to one particular type of engine. Most of the black cabs in London are ancient.

It won't be fixed until all vehicles are banned from major cities.

It won't be fixed until all vehicles are banned from major cities.

Flaperon, that's total nonsense. Diesel cars, even Euro 6, are way worse for NOx than petrol. Plenty of research done to show this.

Just got a new diesel, we do around 15-18k a year but its mainly weekend trips away. Doesn't get used during the week at all...

I am in a similar situation to the Op's.

My take on this so far is that (generally) diesel engines produce a lot more Nitrous Oxides than petrol engines. A lot of the statistics used to highlight the difference in the amount of NOX produced do not take into account that diesel engines are on average bigger and that newer diesel engines that use AdBlue technology are closing this gap significantly.

On the flip side of this, petrol cars (generally) produce more Carbon Dioxides than their diesel counterparts but this gap is also now closing with the introduction of smaller petrol engines that are lighter and are more economical.

So when it comes to looking for a new car I should be looking to either choose a newer diesel engine or a smaller petrol engine that is as economical as possible. Regardless of the number of miles covered, is this not the best way to go?

As @nick says its a diesel ban that's coming first. Last 2 years when pollution is bad in Paris they have operated an alternative odd/even registration number system for driving in the city. Also all old classics (eg your MGB / E-type) are now permanently banned. We now have a "vignette" system with a colour coded disc based on how polluting the car is and it's clear they will use that to limit access. The Mayor has openly stated old diesels will be permanently excluded if she gets her way in the future. (Nite she is also closing roads making congestion and pollution worse 😐 )

IMO the writing is on the wall for diesels certainly in big cities. If we where still living in central London I'd buy a Hybrid for the congestion charge savings and as "insurance" against any future rule changes

EDIT: we are in the market for a new (used) car and it's tough to find good petrol models as for so long diesel has made up so much of the sales figures.

City driving's skewing this a lot. You can ban my diesel from city centres if you like, it's only been in a city centre once in the last 5 years. It's a big deal for some people of course but not for all.

There are positives and negatives to diesel. They produce more of some pollutants but less of others, which is the issue.

I'd like to know real world NOx figures for SCR (aka AdBlue) equipped diesels.

this gap is also now closing with the introduction of smaller petrol engines that are lighter and are more economical.

Well, you can also get smaller lighter diesels too.

Flaperon, that's total nonsense. Diesel cars, even Euro 6, are way worse for NOx than petrol. Plenty of research done to show this.

Over exaggeration much?

Euro emissions standards for diesel cars

Date CO NOx PM

Euro 1 July 1992 2.72 - 0.14
Euro 2 January 1996 1.0 - 0.08
Euro 3 January 2000 0.64 0.50 0.05
Euro 4 January 2005 0.50 0.25 0.025
Euro 5a September 2009 0.50 0.180 0.005
Euro 6 September 2014 0.50 0.080 0.005

Euro emissions standards for petrol cars

Date CO NOx PM

Euro 1 July 1992 2.72 - -
Euro 2 January 1996 2.2 - -
Euro 3 January 2000 2.3 0.15 -
Euro 4 January 2005 1.0 0.08 -
Euro 5 September 2009 1.0 0.060 0.005
Euro 6 September 2014 1.0 0.060 0.005

I wouldn't say that 0.02mg/km is way worse. Certainly not as good but diesels still emit half as much permissible CO2 as petrols. Note that I'm being very careful to distinguish between the NOx [b]generated[/b] and those [b]emitted[/b]. The generated NOx are dealt with in the EGR system (which then has a knock on effect of increased particulates so DPF is fitted) and so can be mitigated against.

And yes, city driving exacerbates things as engines don't get up to a good temperature to reduce particulates (ironically cooler engines will generate less NOx).

I think it would depend on your intended use. If you're going to be pootling about town, I personally would avoid a diesel if I had the choice.

But for up and down the motorway, crack on.

Pretty much this.

My take on this so far is that (generally) diesel engines produce a lot more Nitrous Oxides than petrol engines. A lot of the statistics used to highlight the difference in the amount of NOX produced do not take into account that diesel engines are on average bigger and that newer diesel engines that use AdBlue technology are closing this gap significantly.

On the flip side of this, petrol cars (generally) produce more Carbon Dioxides than their diesel counterparts but this gap is also now closing with the introduction of smaller petrol engines that are lighter and are more economical.

So when it comes to looking for a new car I should be looking to either choose a newer diesel engine or a smaller petrol engine that is as economical as possible. Regardless of the number of miles covered, is this not the best way to go?

What are you trying to achieve? Better economy? Less pollution? And what driving are you doing - city, motorway or mixed?

We've just replaced an '06 Focus 1.8tdci with a '16 C220D and it gets pretty much the same mpg, but significantly less particulates - the Focus used to blow a huge cloud out the back when accelerating hard which was visible in the mirror in headlights of cars behind, the Merc has no discernible cloud at all.
I'd never drive into town, its just not worth it - that's what bicycles and public transport are for. Fortunately I've just found the AdBlue tank level as the manual helpfully suggests two very different capacities - one which means refilling every 5,000 miles, and the other every 15,000.
The next car will certainly be different, probably solely electric or electric drive with a small infernal combustion for range enhancement.

Any car more than 30 years old and registered as a collectors car can be driven around Paris, Jamba. So you can still trundle down Les champs in your E-type.

Paris is one of the cities that clearly demonstrate how useless the E3/4/5 and even E6 are in real driving conditions when people clog it away from the lights. Pollution in Paris has not gone down as the older more polluting diesels have gone to the breakers because the newer standards make next to no difference when diesel cars are driven hard.

If they really do start banning diesels from city centres then the shit really will hit the fan . Virtually every lorry or delivery van is diesel and when did the petrol engine become environmentally friendly anyhow ?

They didn't, but we just found out that diesel emissions are far far worse for our health than we thought.

However our 1.2TSI petrol stop start Golf easily does over 50mpg.

There isn't really a viable alternative yet for lorries (except perhaps they could go hybrid around town like London busses). There are viable alternatives for diesel cars.

Diesels are banned in Tokyo, even their trucks run on petrol.

Is "nice place to be" the new "making progress"?

esselgruntfuttock - Member
I'd stick to a diesel. I can't be arsed changing plugs, points, condensers, rotor arms & distributor caps when they conk out, not to mention setting the dwell angle
I'm hoping this was tongue in cheek as other than the plugs, none of these are present in a modern car.

What? So does that mean I can sell my dwell meter?

Do they still do 4* petrol?

Is "nice place to be" the new "making progress"?

No, just another way of saying 'it's a nice car'.

Paris is one of the cities that clearly demonstrate how useless the E3/4/5 and even E6 are in real driving conditions when people clog it away from the lights. Pollution in Paris has not gone down as the older more polluting diesels have gone to the breakers because the newer standards make next to no difference when diesel cars are driven hard.

I take it everyone in Paris drives a new car then?

non of your points convinced me anyone. picking the big planet killer up on Saturday.
I reasoned that the amount of cycling I do must offset the little bit of driving I do.

makes sense eh........ 😆

You may as well be comfy Ton, speshly being the state your body's in! 😆

bastard............... 😆

Sqirrelking, I'm repeating the results reported. A drop in NOX and soot was expected as the Euro 4/5/6 cars replaced older diesels. In eight years half the cars on the road get replaced so we should be seeing the benefits of at least E5. However, the levels of NOX are still going up. This is exactly what prompted the Americans to start real world testing which led to them discovering VW's cheat and the whole dieselgate saga. E6 is still a fudge. Drive an E6 diesel hard from cold and it's still a filthy beast - the test still doesn't do that.

Just about to replace my current diesel with another second hand diesel. I do 20,000+ miles a year and its generally 800 every other weekend in two journeys of 400 each way. I don't drive into a large city centre very often and have to park on the street living in a flat, so for me diesel is still the right tool for the job but will embrace the change when it comes and meets my needs.

My last 3 cars have been diesel; the £400 a year fuel savings seemed to make it worthwhile. I am starting to change my mind though: The newer diesels might have fewer emissions but they also have very expensive components that are as likely as not to need replaced in the first 3 years. If you have to replace any of the following: Injectors, commonrail pump, dpf, dmf or egr then your fuel savings over several years will soon disappear.

they also have very expensive components that are as likely as not to need replaced in the first 3 years

I don't think that's true. 50% failure rate in three years?

"As likely as not" is technically 50%, but not necessarily that precise for the purposes of rhetoric! 🙂

Diesel's are responsible for environmental cancers and people are trying to reduce their use. If you have the choice you should buy a petrol car.

So what has ton bought? did I miss that?

Interesting. The family car we are looking at is £800 more expensive in petrol form and does 20mpg less on average (manufacturers figures) and has a higher VED band. As we lessen the school runs and the ratio turns to longer journeys and lower the mileage, its a real quandary which to go for. We are outer London and would never drive in, but the environmental factor is an issue that to me although massively offset by everyone else emissions is something I cant change - although of course if everybody thought like that etc...

What I find odd is we are all affected by cancer..Often threads on here being angry at it. Yet, when it comes to taking a financial hit to do our bit to help reduce number of cancer victims, we justify not doing it and still opt to drive diesel's.

FYI, I drive petrol. Diesel is simply off the cards for me now.

Modern Diesels are very clean and no comparison to the smokey oil burners of old - my 2016 Vauxhall Insignia 1.6 CDTi EcoFlex Estate produces 99g/km of emissions and is Zero road tax, 50mpg around town and 70 mpg on a run AND you can get 2 mountain bikes in the back.
Compare that to a petrol engine above 1.6 and with similar room inside,then tell me who's damaging the environment.
Did I mention that it's for sale? 😀

In my mind, domestic diesel vehicles shouldn't be the first target, it should be commercial vehicles. 14% of Nox pollution in the UK comes from transportation but it does get released at sensitive high density areas, so why not target the buses, taxi's, vans and lorries that drive at low speed's and idle in cities, surely this would make a far higher dent in the problem than someone driving their diesel in rural areas or on motorways getting penalised

chickenman - Member

My last 3 cars have been diesel; the £400 a year fuel savings seemed to make it worthwhile. I am starting to change my mind though: The newer diesels might have fewer emissions but they also have very expensive components that are as likely as not to need replaced in the first 3 years. If you have to replace any of the following: Injectors, commonrail pump, dpf, dmf or egr then your fuel savings over several years will soon disappear.

None of those are very likely to fail in 3 years (and dmfs are appearing now in petrol cars. DPFs are a pain in the arse mind.

Do SCR/AdBlue cars have EGR?

my 2016 Vauxhall Insignia 1.6 CDTi EcoFlex Estate produces 99g/km of emissions

But this is about NOx not CO2. How much NOx does it emit? Do you know?

@rivingtonbike...What makes you convinced new diesel's are cleaner? The car companies have been caught lying through their arses regards their emissions figures.

squirrelking - Member

Flaperon, that's total nonsense. Diesel cars, even Euro 6, are way worse for NOx than petrol. Plenty of research done to show this.

Over exaggeration much?

Euro emissions standards for diesel cars

Date CO NOx PM

Euro 1 July 1992 2.72 - 0.14
Euro 2 January 1996 1.0 - 0.08
Euro 3 January 2000 0.64 0.50 0.05
Euro 4 January 2005 0.50 0.25 0.025
Euro 5a September 2009 0.50 0.180 0.005
Euro 6 September 2014 0.50 0.080 0.005

Euro emissions standards for petrol cars

Date CO NOx PM

Euro 1 July 1992 2.72 - -
Euro 2 January 1996 2.2 - -
Euro 3 January 2000 2.3 0.15 -
Euro 4 January 2005 1.0 0.08 -
Euro 5 September 2009 1.0 0.060 0.005
Euro 6 September 2014 1.0 0.060 0.005

I wouldn't say that 0.02mg/km is way worse. Certainly not as good but diesels still emit half as much permissible CO2 as petrols. Note that I'm being very careful to distinguish between the NOx generated and those emitted. The generated NOx are dealt with in the EGR system (which then has a knock on effect of increased particulates so DPF is fitted) and so can be mitigated against.

And yes, city driving exacerbates things as engines don't get up to a good temperature to reduce particulates (ironically cooler engines will generate less NOx).

All you've done there is quote the Euro emission limits, which as we know, bear no relation to reality. Recent research shows that a Euro 6 diesel car will typically emit 2-3 times the prescribed value. So when I say "way more than petrol", I do so advisedly.

Secondly, your claim that diesel is "half the CO2" of petrol is curious, seeing as CO2 values are not part of the Euro standard.

In my mind, domestic diesel vehicles shouldn't be the first target, it should be commercial vehicles.

Commercial vehicles show much better compliance with Euro standards. In fact, I'm told that some Euro6 buses emit the same amount of NOx as Euro6 cars - when you consider the number of people they can carry that's hugely impressive. Apparently, the better performance is due to the use of real-world testing for commercial vehicles, versus (easily gamed) laboratory testing for cars.

It's simple. People justify diesel because it saves money. The evidence is out there for all to see about how diesel contributes to cancer etc. All it would take is to own one less bike (for many people on this forum) to swap to petrol and not be hurt by the financial impact of the swap. Not hard choice really, to make a positive contribution to the health and well-being of our friends, family and fellow humans.

There's a bit more to this though. You get a given amount of petrol and diesel from crude oil. So if we weren't using the diesel it would still be being extracted. You can perhaps do other thing with it, but more petrol usage means more crude to be extracted.

So if we don't burn it, we should do something else valuable with it. And then try and figure out how to make the petrol go further.

People justify diesel because it saves money.

I originally bought one to save fuel for environmental purposes. Which it does, and did even more so in 2003. Then a second diesel I bought because I liked driving it, and I was still able to get 40-50% more mpg than the equivalent petrol.

However now with TFSI engines and hybrids available, it's a bit different. Strongly considering TFSI next time.

It's simple. People justify diesel because it saves money.

Not necessarily. My annual mileage is low enough for the cost saving to be trivial. I bought a diesel car some years ago because of the CO2 saving and I believed the emissions abatement technology was sufficiently advanced to trivialize the local air quality concerns. That belief was evidently false, which is why my car will be traded in for a petrol once I've saved up enough cash.