I ride give or take 100 miles a week, including commuting (steady and short and long intervals), longer road rides and club mountain bike rides which are fairly hard fartlek-esque. I do some XC races and I began doing weekly time trial 10s last year on my road bike fitted with aero bars and and a reversed layback seatpost.

I do some strength training (bodyweight and some sandbags and barbell) and I do a bit of running, but less than I used to (I can still manage a sub 19 min 5k on very little mileage, which suggests reasonable strength and aerobic fitness. If I ran more I would be sub 40 for a 10k)

I feel that I should be able to do a low 24 min 10.

I managed one decent TT 10 at 24:45 mid season last year, but was above 25 minutes for my other efforts.

This year I have been doing TTs and practising more specifically, but I am unable to get below 25:40, with fairly consistent times.

For some reason I am not improving.

Frustratingly, I am significantly relatively better at XC racing (and running) than I am at TT.

I suspect that my position is not very slippery:
position photo

Ideas and suggestions welcome.

Thanks

Do you always ride the same course ? Otherwise there’s little point in chasing a specific time – look for improvements over previous runs on the same course(s) or (less objective) compare yourself to “known” other riders ?

… says a man who’s never done a TT (’til tomorrow)

you’re being punished for the sock/over shoe combo. 😯

The be safe be seen sock combo is great 😉

For comparison I have ridden the same course 13 times and one other course once (last week, with a very similar time).

I am near the bottom of the non-pensioner men -I’m almost 40, but behind people older than me.

Seen many worse positions. Will require mind bleach to rid myself of those socks when I sleep tonight though.

You warming up properly? A 10 is all about being ready to go batshit mental out of the blocks. OK not batshit mental but full gas and then hold it in proper pain for the last 10 minutes. I think my best times in a 10 were some of the most painful experiences of my life. I’ve got a friend who used to give himself a nose bleed pushing so hard. You need a really good warm up with a number of proper race pace efforts in there to get it all out in the race.

What’s the course like? Could you be over or under geared? Your kit is not the last word in quick but buying time is not really the point here I guess. Dare I suggest a power meter (even borrowing one) to see what’s going on, is the power dropping away through the 10 for example.

I warmed up tonight for about 13k. Mostly spinning the pedals rather than hard efforts.

I try to go hard, but don’t feel as aerobically flat out as I do during a 5k run race, but I have pushed myself to the point of dizziness on occasion.

Course mostly flat-ish. Gearing, I’m mid cassette, so could change up or down if necessary.

I have been trying to increase my cadence (and deeper, diaphragm breathing) to use aerobic system rather than just mashing, but times are the same.

OK. Pushing aerobically at the top of your limit in an aero position is an acquired taste. Do you ride in that position much outside of the race? Again not bimbling but in race simulated efforts. Use a turbo much? Probably the best place for it.

I have been doing some practice in Aero position on longer rides and shivered intervals and riding the drops on my commuter at every opportunity.

I try to go hard, but don’t feel as aerobically flat out as I do during a 5k run race

Thinking about it neither did I. I think (hazzy memory) the main difference is the number of muscle groups used running and riding, especially in an aero position where you are isolating all bar you legs in a way unlike XC riding. With TT the main pain is the burn in your legs and because it is relentless unlike xc where the effort fluctuates much more.

I have been doing some practice in Aero position on longer rides and shivered intervals and riding the drops on my commuter at every opportunity.

There’s getting your back muscles etc used to the position and what you are doing will help with but that’s different to getting yourself able to breath hard in that position. Add some full gas efforts, say 5 mins at race pace where you can. If not on a turbo find two spots on your ride to ‘race’ between and try to beat the last time.

Your warm up should take you up to threshold for it to be worthwhile. Turbo or rollers in the carpark to ensure you steadily ramp it up. Presume you’re using a HRM and knowledge of your threshold HR to do this?

Other than that (and some of the worthwhile things posted above), are you hitting the TTs ‘fresh’, or with loads of miles in your legs from commuting? Do you shuffle your week’s training around the TT night?

Good luck with your efforts…(and the socks) 🙂

Run less, ride more.
100mi/wk is not a lot at all.
Include some 5-10min intervals above race pace.
Make sure you are rested when you want to perform well.
Position doesn’t look horrible – socks on the other hand…

Position. What searpost are you using? Have you gone lower and closed down your hip angle to the extent that you can’t get the power down?

Warm up is important, but you shouldn’t be going nuts off the block.

Is the course flat or undulating?

If it has ups and downs then try pushing harder on the climbs and recovering slightly on the down parts that follow (by recover I mean push really hard but not as hard as on the climbing parts).

It’s a more efficient way of utilising the power you can produce ad the speed gains on the climbs are far greater than the reduction in speed on the descents due to drag at the higher speeds requiring exponentially more energy go overcome.

Hope that makes sense

Cheers for the ideas.

I will try a harder warm up.

I have lowered the stem slightly since the photo and intend to lower it further and push the aero bars forward a little now that I’ve improved my flexibility.

Seatpost is a Thompson layback that ive spun around to be forward.

I’m not sure how much difference it will make.

I’ve been using an aero helmet (and keeping my head up) this year which appears to have made little/no difference.

Do you have a graph of your heart rate for a TT? I compared mine to some quicker riders and found their heart rate went up quickly to max/near max and stayed almost constant for the entire TT. Mine didn’t go up as quick, nor did it stay as constantly near max. Conclusion? I need to hurt more to go quicker and that’s taking somme practice.

Looked at your TT efforts via mywindsock.com ? Know thy enemy, know the wind direction. You even enter segments and know how the wind will help or hinder you right now eg. https://mywindsock.com/segment/14935487/

Looked at your fitness/fatigue/form in premium Strava, or the free mind-blowing data plugin that is Stravistix (https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/stravistix-for-strava/dhiaggccakkgdfcadnklkbljcgicpckn?hl=en) ?

Is your wheelset’s rim width a good aero match for the tyre width you are using?

Are the tyres you are using regarded as being relatively low rolling resistance for that size? http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e10pAT38cs[/video]

Looking at your first post and what riding you do I would suggest trying a few fast club runs on the road bike where you are properly struggling to hang on. Sometimes you just need to push yourself harder to gain speed.

HR data would be helpful. Pushing
And trying Hard isn’t something I’ve had issues with in other sports (often making up for a lack of skill), but time trialling is quite specific.

10 miles is quite short, similar to a 5k run race in intensity so not really something that should require 200miles a week riding.

I haven’t got a Hr strap for the Garmin, but I will buy one. (My Hr meter is an old basic one)

I don’t think that bike or kit is limiting me at my current performance level. I should be making big gains! And I’m just not improving

A club road ride might be a good call.

Ps. Wheels are Cosmic Elite with 23mm Vittoria tyres -shouldnt be a drag issue.

10 miles is quite short, similar to a 5k run race in intensity so not really something that should require 200miles a week riding.

Yes, 200mi a week would be excessive – 150mi is probably reasonable.
Building a bigger engine will help you cling on to intense efforts longer.
Also, there’s a theory that pedalling increases your efficiency at pedalling – very logical but hard to prove. With the exception of extremely time crunched plans most coaches will have you on the bike 5 day a week regardless of the nature/duration of your event.

Sounds like the OP could benefit from working out what threshold feels like and doing some more specific preparation and training ie Simply isn’t pushing hard enough? fwiw my 5k and 10k times are similar, but have a sub 22 10 mile TT PB

You’re most likely pacing them badly and going out too hard.

You want to maintain a relatively constant effort for the duration, up hill, down hill, round corners, constant power, start to finish.

First task is to buy Garmin strap then see how consistently I am working and to try to work out threshold

You’re most likely pacing them badly and going out too hard.

You want to maintain a relatively constant effort for the duration, up hill, down hill, round corners, constant power, start to finish.

Agreed. Rereading what I wrote last night it could come across that I mean too hard too soon. However….and it’s a big however…..constant effort means different things to different people. What you should be aiming for is constant power through the ride. To achieve that your heart rate will ramp up over time (before plateauing) and perceived effort will also increase with time so at threshold by the end of the 10 your heart rate will be considerably higher than than in the first mile and the perceived effort will also have risen dramatically. The PE you are truly capable of enduring is much more than you might think and only experience will train you that it is ok to hurt that much. The tricky bit is having the experience (from getting it wrong as well as right) to know where than line is so you set a power level at the start you can maintain and the confidence to reach a pain threshold you know you can sustain.

To be honest your position looks pretty reasonable. You’ve moved the saddle forward – is it a standard saddle or a TT specific one? there is a difference because the TT ones allow you to ride right on the nose, and this is only 5 cm behind the BB. A standard saddle will be about 2-3 cm further back.

As for effort, A HR monitor would be a big step forward. For a 10, you will be in Zone 4 and pushing higher. Yesterday I averaged 173 bpm with a max of 178 and a real MAX of about 183 bpm. 10’s are hard!

I just came on here to see what tips people had, I’m no TT expert.

However, for crits and road races I really struggle to push myself unless I’ve warmed up properly. I almost always use a turbo trainer for warm-ups now as it allows a bit of structure (and means I can block the world out with earphnes and concentrate). My routine is:

5 min easy spin (granny gear)
Shift big ring – big sprocket (you’ll need 8 gears to use so you can avoid cross chaining if you want to)
1 min in this gear then shift to 1 bigger gear every minute for 8 mins.
2 min easy spin (granny gear)
6 sec super high cadence (slightly harder than granny gear)
spin for rest of minute
Repeat cadence/easy minute 2 more times
3-5min easy spinning.

The last 2 mins of the big ring riding should be just below and just above TT effort respectively. I find that really helps me prepare mentally for what I’m getting into and in the few TTs I’ve done has been a useful mental reference for pacing.

You need to get a powermeter. It’s the number that will tell you if you’re improving.

I have done my first few 10 mile TT’s this year and have learned a lot quite quickly but still have loads to learn. Things I have found so far that have helped massively are:
*Not to start off too fast and winding it up towards the end. A power meter makes it easier to achieve this and removes the temptation to go set off too fast.
*Learning where to put effort in and where to save energy.
*A power meter is useless unless you know how to use it (i’m still learning)
*You haven’t gone fast enough unless you are sick over the finish line.

The weirdest thing I have found is that I can do the 10 mile course twice with a 5 min rest in between and I’m always faster the second time.

Apologies for a bit of a thread hijack but it’s sort of related!

I’m thinking about having a go at one of the club’s 10 mile TT’s but really don’t know what to expect regarding a likely time. I’m not the lightest so my 5K PB isn’t great at 25:45 (and I’m maybe a minute+ off that shape at the moment). I’ve only even had one go at going fast for 10 miles and did break 30 minutes (276W average, see https://www.strava.com/activities/929439147 ) but not by a lot – although that was on a road circuit with a lot of corners (and on a Roubaix without aero bars) so perhaps a bit slower than a proper TT course would be. One thing I did note from the Stava details is that my average cadence was too low, so will try and increase that. On HR I struggle to maintain a high heart rate on the bike so only averaged 162 with a max of 168 on that ride despite feeling like I was pushing hard, however by comparison I average 168 with a max of 184 for a half marathon run at the weekend.

To be honest anything under 30 minutes for my first TT I’d probably be happy with but would be interested on any thoughts one what sort of target time I should be aiming at.

As others have said, there’s worse positions.

Helmet and bars are the easy wins in terms of time for the money – make sure you don’t look down and turn the aero lid into a sail.

Couple of free things I’ve heard help – empty bottle on seat tube deflects airflow around the rear wheel (you’ve not got time for drinking on a 10). Tape your number, so it’s not flapping.

Tyres next – see above.

If I were you, I think I’d be getting a heart monitor and a turbo after that. Lay off the running and use that time on the turbo (use your tt bike, so you’re trianing in the position you are racing in).welcome to a world of pain

I found that riding to a heart rate gained me about 30-45 s over a 10 (a while ago now, right enough). However, whether that was simply pushing harder than by feel, or a consequence of using the HRM/Turbo beforehand is debatable.

Forget pacing for a 10 – if you can see properly, pedal harder til it goes blurry. Some of it’s in your head of course, there’s a bit of a mental game of learning to enjoy the pain.

Ditch the socks and shave 😉

I disagree with the consistent power comments. Everything I have read of the last few month about time trailing says you need to choose where you apply the power. For instance you are better off upping your power output when the going is tough. Uphill for example you will be going slower and aerodynamics play less of a part so you get a bigger return of speed for your output. Same applies in a headwind. There is no point going flat out downhill when it may take a massive amount of watts just to gain a couple of extra mph due to air resistance.

If you’re riding close to your 20 min max possible AP on the flat and chuck in an effort on a climb you’ll find it harder to hit your 20 min max power when you’re next on the flat.

Highly likely you’ll find that your 20 min AP is lower than it would’ve been if you’d ridden at a consistent number. Which means you’ll be slower.

Obviously some (a few) courses have gift hills in them that are impossible to hit your numbers on the descent and you are better off getting in a tuck.

I disagree with the consistent power comments. Everything I have read of the last few month about time trailing says you need to choose where you apply the power. For instance you are better off upping your power output when the going is tough. Uphill for example you will be going slower and aerodynamics play less of a part so you get a bigger return of speed for your output. Same applies in a headwind. There is no point going flat out downhill when it may take a massive amount of watts just to gain a couple of extra mph due to air resistance.

I agree with you despite what I said before. There’s lots of work been done about this and most seem to think a variance helps – but its a very mild variance when faced with a hill on the course or a head& tail wind. Say 30 watts up and 30 down on the average, nothing more drastic or you’ll blow your ftp and as TSY says getting back to reasonable numbers on the flat becomes almost impossible. But that’s getting into the fine tuning and with respect to the op he is not at that stage yet. What I was referring to was setting off at a perceived effort that gains you say 400W in the first mile and maintaining the same PE and finishing barely making 200W. Or starting too cautiously and having the ability to put on another 100W for the last two minutes.

It’s very noticeable when the fast lads pass me, or seeing them when I marshal, how obviously hard they are working. I had thought that strong riders would sort of serenely sit at 28mph, but most of them are absolutely breathing out their aris IME. Many (but not all) also seem to push big gears.
So I think vomming on the bars, blurred vision etc is the right thing to aim for, figuratively speaking, on a ten. It’s just having the physical and psychological strength to get to that point where you can empty it all out, which is v hard.

Anyhow, some excellent advice above, but the one guaranteed way of improving is for me to turn up early and go off ahead of you. Give you a [large] target to aim for and get your racing head on.

I think you are over analysing it. Get well warmed up and then pedal like the clappers

Thanks for the ideas, folks.

Garry Lager, thanks for the offer, but you’ll need to arrive earlier!

Forget pacing for a 10

Disagree with this comment. If I find the time I’ll post a link to my first 10. I went proper flat out from the start and blew inside 5mins. Then 15mins of feeling awful. Followed by 5 mins of feeling good and finishing like I should have gone harder….

Not read the thread but what training are you doing? Any intervals etc to go faster? Your position looks ok to me

I do efforts of different duration on the road on different days.

I’ve recently improved cadence by spinning lower gears which I think is one of the keys to it for me, along with sustained efforts.

I find it easier to sustain effort up hill than on the flat.