I’m going for a boarding school in Tenby, a nice one though.

Good luck mate stay safe.

Do I know you, do you work for Paradigm?

Good luck. Whereabout? Just not long back from KAF; had a great time out there! My last ever stint (in theory…..!)

No matter what my viewpoint is on Afghanistan, you are serving our country. Stay safe.

Alec Salmond refuses to get involved in these murderous oil wars/occupations.He at least understands the nature of imperialism and mass murder.I,ve noticed all Rentons defenders have nothing to contribute except personal abuse.

Strange how non of you caring individuals wish the Afghans to stay safe.No doubt, however, you are full of sympathy and compassion for Afghan asylum seekers.

The stability of Afghanistan is in all our interests. If Afghanistan implodes then Pakistan will to. Then its nuclear materials, expertise and weapons may fall into the hands of extremists. It is truly a ‘wicked problem’ – if we do nothing we’re stuffed: if we intervene then we’re damned. Sadly, our liberal democratic freedoms come at a cost.

The war in Afghan paid for my new bike, I’ll have nowt bad said against it 😉

The stability of Afghanistan yak yak yak… Sadly, our liberal democratic freedoms come at a cost.

So old a story, and tell it no better?

Deary me flashy, you really are a sycophant aren’t you? It makes my toes curl with embarrassment when I read your misty eyed, simpering eulogies to people in the forces on here.

Yossarian plus 1. You’re saying what a lot of us are thinking.

Redfordrider-We have destabalised Pakistan, Afghan will collapse the day after the yanks pull out.We have created a wicked problem.

Our position is so moral we are now in “talks” with the Taliban.

Our position is so moral we are now in “talks” with the Taliban.

What? You need to explain your problem with that approach.

monkeycmonkeydo – I’m glad that you use the word ‘we’. As a citizen of a liberal democratic state you are also responsible for the policies of its elected Government. Therefore, you have a right to disagree, to voice your opinions, run for government office or vote the current lot out. I may not agree with what you say, but I will die to ensure that you have the right to say it.

I am interested to hear how ‘we’ have destabilised Pakistan. Seriously. I’m preparing to deliver a lecture on the Geopolitics of of Afghanistan and Pakistan next week to an audience of about 600 people.

As for talking to the ‘Taliban’. First, this is a convenient label used to describe a wide variety of often unconnected groups. Second, there is no military solution to the problem in Afghanistan – only a political one. This involves giving all Afghans the rights that you and I enjoy. So I might not agree with what the ‘Taliban’ has to say, but I believe that they have a democratic right to say it.

Alec Salmond refuses to get involved in these murderous oil wars/occupations.

Ahh, see, you’ve overplayed your hand there. You were fairly successfully trolling the thread earlier on, even if your approach was a bit unsophisticated, but now you’ve thrown Salmond in – well, it’s just a bit too obvious. Next time, be more subtle.

re monkeycmonkeydo. I like to hear his (or her) such voice on the subject. I don’t like pro-war/pro-sycophancy on any subject to do with invasion (or ‘helping’ another nation).

Yes our soldiers in each area are making a small difference to the local population on a day to day basis. That is true. On the ground making differences. On the grand scheme though…

As soon as they are gone it’ll all be a big waste of young mens lives that have been lost. Its the bigger picture. We can’t stop whats going to happen. We can’t stay there forever. As soon as the troops have gone there will be power struggles and I bet Karzai with all his Taleban/Pakistan recent stances will be gone within 6months of withdrawal. Either he’ll flee the country or be assassination.

There is noway you can turn such a country into a Democracy.

On another note, when you sign up to serve our country you serve and are sent where you are sent and do your job. Our job, as the people is to voice, co-here and try to change Government Policy where possible to stop waste of life/or our boys and girls dying needlessly for a Governments policy. (Flame me on this if you like).

Do we know which side Renton’s on?

Do we know which side Renton’s on?

I’d imagine he’s not bothered – the smack keeps flowing either way.

haha. perhaps the Taliban have infiltrated STW forums, and are deciding who’s with or against them.

Never give out your personal details on line, esp when slagging off terrorists!

Where abouts are you based Renton? I’ve just got home on leave from KAF (12 and 3 so 22 days at home this time). I did xmas and new year which wasn’t so bad really.

I’m out there purely for the big money 🙂 (The Army didn’t want me when I volunteered to go – twice…)

cant say where im based in the uk sorry, I will be based out in bastion though.

Its making me chuckle reading this thread.!!

And im definitely on the right side………….??

Don’t look like you’ll put many more miles on those cranks than I did then Steve 😉 stay safe

Not bothered where you are in the UK, just if we were in the same place out there I’d have bought you a coffee 🙂

War is hell.

I get scared playing BF3 with the volume turned up loud.

Good luck, stay safe and try not to shoot anyone who has a family to feed 🙂

I am interested to hear how ‘we’ have destabilised Pakistan. Seriously. I’m preparing to deliver a lecture on the Geopolitics of of Afghanistan and Pakistan next week to an audience of about 600 people.

You might want to mention the partition of India to them. Actually, they might mention it to you first.

The Partition of India was in part an attempt to realise the democratic aspirations of both Muslim and Hindu nationalists. Britain is not without blame, but the resulting 64 years of conflict is in many ways an extension of the ethno-religious tension which had existed in the entire region even before Clive and his imperial ambitions. The Mongols, Moguls, and Maharajas were not exactly agents of peace and humanity. It’s difficult to see how Muslim beliefs can be reconciled with a multitheistic culture which has produced the karma sutra. I think that the key driver of instability in the region is Pakistan’s fear that it will splinter along ethnic lines leaving small Pashtun, Baluch, SIndhis, Punjabis etc. The lose of East Pakistan (Bangladesh) in 1971 haunts them. Perhaps they are seeking to unify all these ethnic groups against a common enemy. After all, it’s easier for a group to define their enemies than themselves!

Renton,

You sir, are a loony, and I salute you.

Nice overview redfordrider, however you haven’t really addressed Britain’s involvement in the region, I look forward to reading a defence of British foreign policy, particularly given your apparent support for liberal democracy that is enjoyed by the west.

It’s easy to identify hypocrisy in any sovereign state’s foreign policy. After all, the primary responsibility of any Government is to ensure national security. If it fails the social contract is void and it becomes illegitimate. Consequently, states regard four key areas as being absolutely vital: Territory, Population, Revenue and International Recognition. Liberal Democracies add civil liberties and human rights to this list while capitalist/free market economies consider prosperity a vital national interest. Britain is no different. It does what it must, not what is moral. The international arena is essentially anarchical despite attempts to enforce international norms. States are effectively above the law.

Britain’s interest in the subcontinent is purely self-serving, because this is what all states do – to do otherwise is to fail in the primary responsibility. It’s not in the UK’s interest to allow nuclear weapons to fall into the hands of extremists. It’s not in its interest to allow opium to be exported from Afghanistan. It’s not in its interests to have a war between Pakistan and the world’s most populous democracy. It’s not in its interest to allow terrorist groups to train in ungoverned space from where they can launch attacks against the UK or our trading partners.

Foreign policy is inherently unfair. Perhaps it can be otherwise, but not until the international system of sovereign nations states is replaced by something better.

Good response! I like your writing style, very engaging.

I’m interested that you are prepared to die for this system, why?

‘The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants‘ – Thomas Jefferson 1787. Individual self-determination is best served by liberal democracies where there are free and fair elections, universal franchise and where individuals and minorities are protected by the rule of law. It’s not perfect, but the alternatives are worse. Theocracy, absolute monarchy, communism, and oligarchy don’t have a better track record. Sadly, liberal democracy needs continuous protection against ideologies that will exploit our civil liberties with the ultimate intent to restrict them. If we stand idly by and fail to to defend our freedoms we could sleep walk into a tyranny. As Benjamin Franklin said, ‘Those who would give up Essential Liberty, to purchase a little Temporary Safety , deserve neither Liberty nor Safety’. Some things are worth fighting for.

Individual self-determination is best served by liberal democracies where there are free and fair elections, universal franchise and where individuals and minorities are protected by the rule of law

Lovely. These aren’t characteristics of real ‘liberal democracies’ though. What should we the people do if we suspect that we’re being used?

Sadly, liberal democracy needs continuous protection against ideologies that will exploit our civil liberties with the ultimate intent to restrict them.

This rather contradicts the protection of individuals and minorities does it not? Also it seems to give the green light to kill families using drone aircraft because there is a suspicion that someone we think is a threat might also be at the party. I’m smelling a rat or two. Who decides who’s a threat? What criteria do they use. WMD? 😆

I note that you’ve quoted a couple of venerable Americans (when we were talking about British stuff) which is cool, care to comment in US foreign policy in the region, and how it differs from ours? It’s my contention that modern, western democracy is distanced from it’s origin. And from it’s ethics.

What would you consider are the characteristics of real liberal democracies? I’m also interested to read why you think liberal democracies have lost their ways.

Invade a country, tell them how they should think and tell them there’s dollars available if they agree to toe a foreign government(s) line.

That’s a very particular type of Western Democracy.

Hora – you’ve got it in one. All states are self serving by definition as they have a responsibility to place the needs of their own people above those of others.

What would you consider are the characteristics of real liberal democracies? I’m also interested to read why you think liberal democracies have lost their ways.

Actually Hora has it pretty much nailed on.

The real characteristics of liberal democracies? The protection of the minority and the individual superseded by the accumulation and protection of wealth. We are blinded by comfort and money (me included). And totally willing to support those who keep it easy for us, even at the expense of others.

I rather suspect that Franklin & Jefferson had something different in mind…

There is a better, more ethical, more integrated and ultimately fairer way to exist. We wont be as rich though which is a bit of a problem.

Franklin and Jefferson were wealthy slave owners…

Of course capitalism is the ultimate protection of individual and minority rights to accumulate wealth – the principle of personal property.

Franklin and Jefferson were wealthy slave owners…

How is that relevant to your argument?

Of course capitalism is the ultimate protection of individual and minority rights to accumulate wealth – the principle of personal property.

So liberal democracy IS capitalism?

Life is full of irony and contradictions. The Founding Fathers were rascists. The Greeks practised apartheid. Liberal Democracy is inextricably linked to capitalism.

I agree that we need a more ethical society and that unbridled greed has undermined social cohesion. I’m concerned that the rich will become richer while the poor get poorer until the ideas of Marx and Lenin regain traction. I want evolution, not revolution.