I’m surprised aluminium isn’t used more – more expensive to weld / shape / buy I suppose?

Elise was (is?) aluminium chassis with fibre glass body. Always thought that was great till some #@?!€ scraped it in a carpark and drove off. Expensive fix till the insurance was resolved. Luckily, a real gent took their number and left me a note with his details offering to be a witness – top man.

New Clios have plastic front wings to keep weight down.

853 is inherently flexy any more then aluminum is inherently stiff. Its all to do with the overall design of the frame and what the builder / desinger is trying to achieve.

You could build a really stiff frame (or car) out of 853 if you wanted

Yes, but what’s the point, it’d be much stronger than it needed to be. Idealy you’d pick a steel (other/better materials exist) that had just enough strength for the task in the shape/thickness that gave you the desired stiffness.

brant – Member

853. Which is a magical clever steel which claims to get stronger when it’s welded. Which is crackers, as George from G-Sport pointed out – if that were the case, surely it would be better to weld all over the tubing.

But it is better “after welding” than normal steel. And is stronger too. So you can use less of it. But then using less makes things flexier.

Any clearer?

The way I understood it was its not “stronger” it’s “harder”. The main failiure arround the weld is a crack (don’t see many frames fold on the weld do you, they crack), thus you have to make the tube thicker to cope with both making it stronger (the forces are generaly concentrated in one part of the tube, eg the bottom of the downtube or top of the top tube, where youd gusset it normaly, by the middle they’re distributed arround the whole circumfrance) and stiffer as flexing tubes tend to crack (so you amke it stiffer so it wont flex). Making it “harder” means you can rule out the crackign case to a certain extent and just make the tube thick enough to be strong. Which makes it lighter and flexier (if you want that, or just simply stronger).

You dont weld all over the tube as you dont normlly crack tubes mid way allong their length, so it’d be wasted.

Stronger materials can be made thinner, but there’s a limit to how thin things can get regardless of theoretical strength because they might get dented or punctured for instance.

You don’t own a car, do you? If you did, you’d know that modern cars (built in a capitalist society) are cleaner, faster, less thirsty, and much longer lasting than their counterparts of, say, twenty years ago.

Don’t knw about the last one though. From what I heard from mechanics and body shop blokes, new cars are pitas… They do break down as much as old ones, but the bill is much higher.
My car mechanics told me that the price of standard services on a dacia (old school motors) is about half of it’s modern counterparts.

My car mechanics told me that the price of standard services on a dacia (old school motors) is about half of it’s modern counterparts.

They lied.

And Dacia are part of renault, so in fact they’re both french and using late 90’s tech, anyone want to voce an oppinion of late 90’s french cars?

The only price increace is most now specify synthetic or semi synthetic oil, but also a longer interval to counter that, and oftent he oil is the only thing thats changed, lots have 2 year intervals on filters etc.

brant – Member

853. Which is a magical clever steel which claims to get stronger when it’s welded. Which is crackers, as George from G-Sport pointed out – if that were the case, surely it would be better to weld all over the tubing. But it is better “after welding” than normal steel. And is stronger too. So you can use less of it. But then using less makes things flexier. Any clearer?

So…youre not trying to.sell us 853 frames this week?

So Brant why use 853 to build inbreds then ?

Strange that the capitalist society has developed ways of painting cars that make them rust less. Have made OE parts that last much longer, have greatly improved the reliability and have started offering 5 yr+ warranties…

+1

Modern cars last for a very long time, are exceptionally reliable and extremely rust proof.

They have the technology to do better though, but won’t use it.
Mercedes Benz developed an engine with a 100k mile service interval but the dealers point blank refused to sell it, too much profit o be had from servicing. Much like Hoover trying to buy Dyson’s idea to shelve it somewhere, too much money in bags.

They have the technology to do better though, but won’t use it.
Mercedes Benz developed an engine with a 100k mile service interval but the dealers point blank refused to sell it, too much profit o be had from servicing. Much like Hoover trying to buy Dyson’s idea to shelve it somewhere, too much money in bags.

Thats a bit of a conspiracy theory.

Theres examples of Honda morotbike engines being used for 100k miles, track days, allsorts, no engine serviceing beyong checking the oil level didn’t drop below the min level. They survived perfectly well.

Van’s have longer intervals purely because they arent weight concious so can have bigger sumps and filters, double the oil volume and filter area and the intervals can double.

Bessides, with the rise in things like MINI TLC plans (basicly you pay for 5 years serviceing upfront with the car) theres an insentive for the dealers not to do any serviceing as theyve got the moeny upfront.

Mercedes Benz developed an engine with a 100k mile service interval but the dealers point blank refused to sell it, too much profit o be had from servicing.

Urban myth.

There are many cars which don’t need a full service for 100k miles, at least in the old sense of checking valves, etc. All they need is an oil change every 20k miles or so, filters and a safety checkover. Engines, to a large degree, are not serviced until high mileage, when cambelts/chains and the like need to be renewed. But all that decoking the head etc….a thing of the past.

I used to work for a manufacturer, so I do have some idea what I’m talking about.

The rest of the car components (suspension, cooling system, electrics etc) needs checking, which is what happens at a service.

If I ever went on that QI telly program I would quickly discover that everything I ‘know’ is in fact wrong.

I’d like to see proof of that andrewh.

Seems to me there’d be a hell of a lot of money to be made in a service interval of 100k miles.

Although I’m sceptical – OIL change interval of 100k miles perhaps, but there’s everything else – checkups, fluids, air filters, belts and all the rest.

They lied.

Do you have any proof to back that up…?

I heard it somewhere and believed it. See posts above, may be an urban myth. Will google it later, if it’s on Wikepedia then it must be true….

Magnesium is dangerous cos if it catches fire then you’ll need really really dark glasses otherwise you’ll be blinded.

I used to work for a manufacturer and a major aftermarket parts manufacturer / distributor.

Within our lifetimes it is highly likely that, aside from crash repairs, the only parts your car will ever need are service consumables.

Also… it is now true that if aftermarket parts are of a sufficient quality they can be used interchangably with OE parts. Meaning you don’t have to take your car to the dealer network to maintain the warranty. This negates the argument that it makes commercial sense for the manufacturer to keep short service intervals.

TSY – that’s more or less true now apart from failures. There will always be failures, but their frequency is less. We don’t need to adjust tappets or check valves etc any more.

I’m sure we could make a car that was so overbuilt it lasted forever, but it would cost a lot. The problem is that people who buy new cars often change them before they get old, so they don’t care if it lasts 8 years or 80 – they won’t own it. The people who buy used cars are much further down the manufacturer’s list of priorities. Surely?

So Brant why use 853 to build inbreds then ?

Because it gives a sense of superiority to those that own them, due to them being “better than normal” and weighing about half a pound less.

853 is great. Like I said – it *is* better than regular steel in a post-weld condition.
My problem with 853 is that you can’t get long 38mm down tubes. As the billets of material they make it from aren’t big enough.

My problem with 853 is that you can’t get long 38mm down tubes. As the billets of material they make it from aren’t big enough

Reynolds now have 853 in 38mm x 9/6/9/1.1 DZB 740mm long, how long did you want to go?

Reynolds now have 853 in 38mm x 9/6/9/1.1 DZB 740mm long, how long did you want to go?

Well, I’m only going off:-

1) What they told me a year or so ago.
2) The price list I have from 15th August didn’t have that tube in.
3) The biggest tubes in that price list are a 34.9mm DT thats 680mm long.

brant

what are you talking about?

The Toyota Picnic used to have an engine slung under the passenger compartment which was a non-serviceable item.

Molgrips, 30 year old Golfs used normal steel but rust from chips doesn’t spread. VW just used very good primer.

Not all fancy steels have corrosion resistance, and the paint, seam dealer and cavity wax process has far more to do with the level of corrosion. I’ve had galvanized cars rust at the seams due to rubbish Sean sealing…

I own an 853 Inbred s/s. Best bike I ever rode. And I love it, or at least I think I do ?.. not so sure now.

Brant, as designer of my favourite frame, & after your comments, should I love my 853 Inbred? Or am I just shallow?.

Dont let my missus answer that.

Brant posted on my thread – gush

I’ve got two of Brant’s frames, an SS with the magic 853, and a hooligan Inbred 567 with hooj tubes. I can’t imagine either working better by swapping tubesets. Although I imagine a standard SS with regular size DN7 tubes would be difficult to tell apart from mine with identical speccing.
Back to cars, something like an Arial Atom frame might work in 853 if suitable size tubes were available. The triangulating tubes between the top and bottom maintubes would probably give enough stiffness, and it’s a very small, light car as well, so issues like those of the beautiful 917 shouldn’t arise.
[edit], just had a look at the Atom’s specs, and it says:

Bronze Welded DOM/ERW Steel Tubing
Powder Coated
Aluminum Bulkheads
there you go. Could work, but I doubt there would be anything at all to be gained.

molgrips grasps the point, the re is no market for a car that cost 50% more and lasts twice as long.

yes cars now are a damn sight better than they used to be – but a 100 mph / 100mpg car with a life span of 30+ years is easily possible

Re Atom etc, I’m surprised they use steal, alloy would be lighter and stiffer, or can alloy tubing not be made strong in those mums of lengths?

The Else uses an alloy tub which is better than any heavy steal tub would be.

Re Atom etc, I’m surprised they use steal, alloy would be lighter and stiffer, or can alloy tubing not be made strong in those mums of lengths?

The Else uses an alloy tub which is better than any heavy steal tub would be.

There are certain parts of Caterhams that utilise 853 tube as did westfield look at said material
In the world of WRC Some areas are replaced with a sheet material not unlike 853 but these arent production cars in the sense of Ford’s etc
An alloy structure like the ariel would be lighter and stiffer??? how so it could actually be made much lighter and stiffer in a higher grade steel ,the majority of tubular frames for sports cars are made of stuff that isnt even near the strength of standard 4130 and its pretty low quality at that

regarding spares.
camera makers used to say the same things about electronic cameras.
last longer and never break.
but if you look at prices for s-h film cameras it’s the electronic ones that aren’t worth anything.not the older mechanical cameras.

a car is a consumable product.an expensive one.
edit-you can repair a film camera.harder to do with an electronic one.

but a 100 mph / 100mpg car with a life span of 30+ years is easily possible

Few people will pay lots of money for a 100mpg car – the people who can afford lots of money want fast fancy cars and don’t care about fuel bills, on the whole.

For this reason the Vauxhall Ampera/Chevy Volt won’t sell in large numbers. Great car, I’d love one but they are almost £30k 🙁

30 year old Golfs used normal steel but rust from chips doesn’t spread.

My 20 year old Polo certainly spread rust from chips. However the underbody was sealed with about a 5mm thick coating of soft yellow stuff which I thought was pretty clever.

Reynolds 853 is basically the same as T45.

T45 is used all over the place:

and:

awhiles back to school mate T45 is a bit stronger than 531 or 4130. It isnt quite at the level an air hardening steel .. 8)

who said anything about 531 or 4130? – the question was about 853.

i’ll let you figure the rest out.

(but here’s a clue; manganese)

after that, i want 500 words from you on the connection between hardness, and toughness.
🙂

ha ha I know the composition of both, but t45 is not anything like 853. t45 yield 700mpa, 853 yield 1400mpa. Is the chemistry the same? bs4t45 has a max of 1.6 Mn, I know that 853 is not the same. Not allowed to publish the composition here.

oh dear, your next piece of homework, is to learn the difference between yield strength, and UTS…

this is fun isn’t it?