so have they been ditched yet?

deep 6

Well its on the agenda but you have to wait and see with any change.

I eman VAT is going up to 20%.

When? we have to wait and see.

You might find this Liberty press release interesting. (Link to pdf)

I am now totally confused. All the parties seem to have momentarily swapped around. Here we have Liberty – whom I incidentally have a huge amount of respect for – supporting a "manifesto" that a largely Tory coalition government has put up and criticising Labour-sponsored laws. I'm not sure now who I'm supposed to dislike!

Sounds ridiculous I know, but it is all so strange at the moment.

They're not supporting a party manifesto; they're making observations of the Coalition's agreements on Civil Liberties and on Immigration. In addition, they're observing where the Coalition has failed to make comment or agreement on various other topics which they [Liberty] believe should have been included, and/or should be included in future considerations.

Yes sorry – I was a bit lazy with words – but what I meant was they generally support (in a loose sense) the intent and direction of a document written in-part by Tories. Which repeals certain parts of laws sponsored by Labour. That's my confusion. All the old certainties seem to be up in the air at present, which I suppose is a good thing.

Anyway, was just musing.

You've been brainwashed by the "Torys are evil" brigade. The Conservatives have been more libertarian than Labour for a long time. Is a fairly normal thing for socialist parties to want to impose more state control.

aracer – Member
You've been brainwashed by the "Torys are evil" brigade. The Conservatives have been more libertarian than Labour for a long time. Is a fairly normal thing for socialist parties to want to impose more state control.

Summed it up in two lines

[Tannoy]

TJ to the forum, please.

[/Tannoy]

😉

@CFH – are you expecting sense from TJ or just a good laugh?

What do you think, Julian?
😉

I'm afraid that I have to disagree on that point, although I accept that there's a fair bit of subjectivity to this, so don't really wish to start a disagreement that no-one will win. But in my defence I would say:

– The use of organised indiscriminate state force in the Miner's Strike;
– The Gibraltar shootings;
– A whole load of wild stuff from Michael Howard along the lines of "lock you up and throw away the key" (Something like that anway);
– Closure of the GLC and other elected councils when they disagreed with Tory views;
– Various "dodgy" trial verdicts in the 1980's that were later overturned when it turned out that evidence had been somewhat abused.

Anyhow, just wanted to defend my point, but as I say have no wish for an argument – I'm signing off now anyway.

CaptainFlashheart – Member
What do you think, Julian?

I could do with a laugh…

Especially after the other night's debacle when he was so abusive!

The Conservatives have been more libertarian than Labour for a long time. Is a fairly normal thing for socialist parties to want to impose more state control.

The Labour party, "socialist?" 😆

El-bent – Member

The Conservatives have been more libertarian than Labour for a long time. Is a fairly normal thing for socialist parties to want to impose more state control.

The Labour party, "socialist?"

"Socialist"

No, more communist really – read Anna Funder's book 'Stasiland' for details!

No, more communist really

Eh?

read Anna Funder's book 'Stasiland' for details!

OK, as long as you read the David F. Schmitz book The United States and Right-Wing Dictatorships.

ononeorange – Member
I'm afraid that I have to disagree on that point, although I accept that there's a fair bit of subjectivity to this, so don't really wish to start a disagreement that no-one will win. But in my defence I would say:

– The use of organised indiscriminate state force in the Miner's Strike;
– The Gibraltar shootings;
– A whole load of wild stuff from Michael Howard along the lines of "lock you up and throw away the key" (Something like that anway);
– Closure of the GLC and other elected councils when they disagreed with Tory views;
– Various "dodgy" trial verdicts in the 1980's that were later overturned when it turned out that evidence had been somewhat abused.

Anyhow, just wanted to defend my point, but as I say have no wish for an argument – I'm signing off now anyway

Invasions of two countries that posed no threat at all to us,
Use of information extracted by torture,
Taking part in renditions,
Jean Charles De Menezes,
Dr Kelly,
Various dodgy arrests of innocent people mainly muslims,
The ability to hold you for 42days without charge if you a "terrorist",
The ability to put you on trial and not tell you what for if you are a "terrorist", just off the top of my head.

I'm sure Maggie could have Tony in a fist fight but he made the world a lot scarier than she ever did.

This last Labour government have behaved beyond abominably. Really, they have. The endless spin, the lies, the war, the fiddling with statistics and the endless, insidious obsession with eroding privacy.

And yet people still support them?

Someone please explain it to me?

New Labour started off being about exerting centralised control over the Labour Party, then once in power it became about exerting centralised control over the rest of us. And because they believed that everything they did was for our own good, tiny little things like civil liberties weren't seen as important.

Hopefully they'll have a good long look at themselves in opposition.

They need to. They really, really need to.

A few high profile members need expelling.

"The Conservatives have been more libertarian than Labour for a long time. Is a fairly normal thing for socialist parties to want to impose more state control."

Almost every country in the world has ID cards. Including the majority with conservative governments.
It is not restricted to those countries with "socialist parties" in power.

.

"No, more communist really"

Indeed – the evidence being the privatisation of whole new areas of the public sector by New Labour. And their refusal to nationalise anything……..unless a gun was placed to their heads, as was the case with Railtrack and the banks. It's all basic Marxist-Leninism innit ?

There are two conservative factions: the Thatcherites and the Wets (Disraeli-ites). Cameron is a Wet.

Thatcherites are authoritarian centralisers. Wets are libertarian de-centralisers. Labour (old and new) are generally authoritarian.

I'm quite excited by the prospect of a "Freedom" or "Great Repeal" act. It feels very British.

Buzz – labour also have authoritarian and liberal wings – as can be seen from the fact I agree with CFH on libertarian issues despite being miles apart in other areas.

This last labour government have been very authoritarian. This was purely an electoral tactic at first to outflank the tories by stealing their "tough on crime" policies and thus pushing them to the right – it worked at first but Cameron has now outflanked them leaving labour more authoritarian on these issues.

Julian – once again – you confuse totalitarian with socialist. True socialism is not authoritarian / totalitarian no mater what rhetoric they use.

"This was purely an electoral tactic at first to outflank the tories by stealing their "tough on crime" policies and thus pushing them to the right"

Yep, I agree.

Labour (old and new) are generally authoritarian.

And the proof can be seen in how they introduced devolution to Scotland and Wales. Re-established in a democratically elected local government to London – abolished by the Tories. Supported the Human Rights Act 1998, which is very strongly opposed by many Tories. And supported the Social Chapter which laid down certain basic rights for workers, and for which the Tories negotiated an opt out. …..we can't be giving individuals too many rights – when corporations have a business to run now can we ?