Perhaps that's why this thug in uniform had been given the task of driving the van! Probably gets his kicks from striking people with his baton and was being kept out of the way due to previous indiscretions. His arrogance when confronted with the evidence was truly astounding.
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Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
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Posted 1 year ago #
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Because it's a f%$king stupid place to be.
He had been trying for a while to get home, he wanted nothing to do with the demonstration or the police. There is nothing "stupid" about that, and to somehow try to shift some of the blame of what Pc Harwood did, onto Ian Tomlinson himself, for apparently being "stupid" is quite frankly deplorable.
I would like to be able to break my fall with my hands. Call them protective.
If you actually look at the video you will see that Ian Tomlinson did precisely that - he broke his fall with his hands. Have you seen the video ?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I wonder how many more instances like this there have been over the years that don't happen to have been caught on video.
+1
I would bet on loads.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I wonder how many more instances like this there have been over the years that don't happen to have been caught on video.
Probbly loads.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Roach
That happened 28 years ago, and still there has been no public enquiry.
And Jean Charles De Menezes was murdered, yet his killers have never faced proper justice. That's an utter disgrace.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Steven Waldorf anyone? A bit more extreme but still a flagrant disregard for their fellow man! I suppose they were going to say he pulled a gun on them.............oops wrong man!!
Posted 1 year ago # -
I know its taken time and all that, but to be honest I'm quite happy with the way this has gone. Overall its not been kneejerk, it has been left to independant sources to decide and I think cover up is a bit harsh. Remember a lot of the so called cover up is down to incompetence on the part of one Freddy Patel, not the Police, The IPC or the courts. Once they accepted that Harwood would not be charged by the CPC, the Police did then institute their own disciplinary proceedings against the guy. That all takes time, and remember he has rights too, including the right to a fair hearing.
Personally I think the complete lack of reaction to Harwoods behaviour by his colleagues speaks volumes, and the bigger picture needs looking into pretty carefully IMHO.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Remember a lot of the so called cover up is down to incompetence on the part of one Freddy Patel, not the Police, The IPC or the courts.
But was it just incompetence, or did he collude with the police to give the verdict they wanted?
Also, am I right in thinking - the officer in question falsely claimed to have had no contact with Tomlinson, and this version of events wasn't contested until the video footage came out?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I wonder how many more instances like this there have been over the years that don't happen to have been caught on video.
Its precisely because there has been loads that I want to get a full disclose into the wider issues which requires a good understanding of why Harwood acted as he did. Now while he is having to defend himself he and his colleagues will tend to hide the truth when it reflects badly upon him. Take away the element of blaming the individual and it becomes easier to find out exactly what happened and why.
edit - Patel - chosen to do the first PM as he was a safe pair of hands he has previous
Posted 1 year ago # -
I don't think police officers facing justice makes it any harder or easier to find the truth about the wider issues. Change never comes from within the force, it always has to be forced upon them.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm not sure you can read too much into the reaction of the other officers. The strike and the shove took all of a few seconds. By the time they've seen that the one who did it was back in the line, so there wasn't really anything ongoing to then react to. It would be different if he went on to give the man a shoeing on the floor, you'd expect them to react to that obviously. You'd hardly expect them to all stop what they were doing to wag their fingers and shout at him would you, not there and then in front of a crowd. One of the articles in the guardian printed details of the evidence of a WPC who was there and she was very blunt in rebutting Pc Harwood's claim that he was a threat. I don't think it's fair to read anything one way or the other into their reactions at the time.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I wouldn't trust anyone called Freddy Patel anyway, I mean, it's not like it's a proper name.
Posted 1 year ago # -
so there wasn't really anything ongoing to then react to
I think you'll find that there was an injured man who required assistance, he was helped by bystanders but coppers a few feet away seemed hugely unconcerned by the incident, and totally ignore the perpetrator - presumably they thought everything was fine and tickety-boo ?
Would they have reacted in exactly the same way if Ian Tomlinson had been assaulted by a protester ? I somehow doubt it and reckon they reacted in the way they did because they believed that everything which had occurred was acceptable.
Posted 1 year ago # -
But was it just incompetence, or did he collude with the police to give the verdict they wanted?
I think if you look into el Freds background you will find that incompetence looms fairly large. There doesn't seem to be any suggestion anywhere of collusion with the Plod. Try this for example
Also, am I right in thinking - the officer in question falsely claimed to have had no contact with Tomlinson, and this version of events wasn't contested until the video footage came out.
...... Lie not challenged before contrary evidence comes to hand shocker!
Posted 1 year ago # -
What do you suggest they should have done with the perpetrator then? Arrested him? All turned their backs on the protesters to argue with him? I don't know, maybe they did think it was ok. I just don't think you can draw any conclusion from what we saw. To be fair, you did acknowledge that you were only presuming that they condoned his actions. Are the transcripts of their evidence available yet, that might give a more accurate insight into their views than just making assumptions?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am also aware that none of the countless police officers who witnessed the incident reacted in a way which you might expect them to react if one of their colleagues had behaved in a manner not in keeping with their training. They appear to be hugely comfortable with the situation, and Pc Harwood returns to his post in a relaxed manner not betraying any hint of concern that he has just landed himself into serious trouble.
I personally know of other cases where one officer was violent/out of order and the other officer with them stood around looking non-committal until asked by a passing mmember of the public if officer 1 should be doing that. They replied no and then officer 2 started asking officer 1 to stop, only when questioned by the public.
I suspect the training does not strictly say "only when someone is causing trouble is it OK to use a baton" etc, it's called common sense and that is a personal fault for which he should be held responsible.
No, but if I did fall over (or get pushed) (there's a riot going on, man!) I would like to be able to break my fall with my hands. Call them protective.
The riot wasn't exactly close to this incident though was it, and he was clearly intoxicated. Both of these facts should have been taken into consideration by the police who instead chose to shove him to the floor when they could see he was clearly incapable of stopping himself and not causing any harm. I'm all for giving violent protestors a kicking if they're using violence against someone else, but this case is clearly not even close to that. The police are trusted with a difficult task, they are employed and trained for their abilities to do that. IF they can't do that they should not be police.
What do you suggest they should have done with the perpetrator then? Arrested him? All turned their backs on the protesters to argue with him? I don't know, maybe they did think it was ok.
Pull him back and take him away, or at least attempt to help the guy up, are you suggesting the police are incapable of doing anything about a rogue officer? How are they meant to cope with riots if they can't pick the right course of action in this instance? IIRC it is on record that the rest of the officers did not think this was an OK course of action.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I'm not sticking up for them, just trying to be fair.
I've watched the video again. The officer hits him with the baton, then pushes him, then runs away all within 2 or 3 seconds. That's not time for any other officer to get hold of him, and once he's run away, how can they take him away?
Fair point on helping him up, although there were two guys helping him within a second or two of him falling, and within 12-15 seconds he was back up on his feet.
Posted 1 year ago # -
The point is that its not right for fellow officers to just stand by, presuming thats what they did. This guy apparently threw a photgrapher to the floor a few minutes earlier, then he welted Tomlinson with a baton, then he pushed Tomlinson to the ground.
The simple fact is had any of his colleagues remonstrated with him it is entirely possible that Tomlinson may still be alive and importantly in respect of the "macho, all boys together, must back up my mates" culture, Harwood may not be facing losing not only his career but quite possibly his liberty over acting like a cock..... and lets face it if that were a hanging offence on its own who amongst us would still be in work without our mates pointing out the error of our ways to us at some point or other in our lives?)
Posted 1 year ago # -
Senior police were told 48 hours after Ian Tomlinson's death that officers had witnessed a colleague push him to the ground at the G20 protests, but the information was withheld from the police watchdog.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/may/09/ian-tomlinson-evidence-held-back
Looks like some officers did speak out, but there was a cover-up....
Posted 1 year ago # -
Collusion? Patel was told by the police to rule out any reference to violence or civil disorder from his coroner's inquiry.
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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