http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-13268633
I wonder how they are going to deal with PC Harwood.
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Ian Tomlinson unlawfully killed
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Posted 1 year ago #
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inexcusable behaviour by the officer in question.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Renews your faith in the judiciary
Posted 1 year ago # -
in other news - sherlock holmes still constipated
Posted 1 year ago # -
I have a slight feeling of "there but for the grace of God goes many a good cop"
Its too glib and simplistic to blame the cop for their actions in the heat of the momnet. Failures go much further than that. Training, briefing, management, all have a part to play as does luck. How many folk were pushed back and given a thwack when they refused that day? Every day cops restrain people far more aggressively than that.
Was the cop acting in accordence with their training and instruction?
I would far prefer to see full disclosure and thus real lessons learnt that attempting to hang a cop out to dry which causes the police to close ranks and makes it had to get full disclosure
Posted 1 year ago # -
I just hope that justice will be done for Ian and his family!
Posted 1 year ago # -
teej - agreed (a bit) but I think the change in behaviour will come from the rank & file, not from above. Next time someone in authority tells a group of trainees or a squad to rough-up a crowd if necessary, they'll likely all have this in mind. All the more so if they screw this pc over.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ, the video says it all for this case. The officer was clearly out of order. If it hadn't been for the multiple videos of this act then it would not have gone this far. I do accept however that the MET have some vicious sods in their ranks and violence against the public is more common than it should be.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Would a young man egged on by his mates to lash out at a stranger, leading to his victims death get same level of sympathy TJ?
Front line cops have got to be responsible for their acts of unwarranted violence just as much as the rest of socioty. Sometimes "training, briefing and management" can be the scapegoat to excuse out of control front line thugs.
Posted 1 year ago # -
You can train someone as much as you like but if he/she is prepared to run up behind and assault a person walking away and not presenting a threat to you or the public then he/she deserves to be placed in a court to answer their actions. Try it yourself, run up behind someone, hit them with a baton, push them to the floor and see where you end up.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Teh point I try to make is that by hanging the individual out to dry its hard to actually get to the roots of what happened as both the individual and the service will close ranks to try to protect him. thi is only natural.
We don't know the stress and strain that cop was under, we don't know what they had been briefed, we don't know if they were a suitable person to be in the police force.
I am only asking the questions here that need to be asked. Does the responsibility go far wider than the individual cop? I think it might well do
Is it more a case of "corporate manslaughter" by the Met? if the recruitment, training, briefing was up to scratch this ideath may not have happened?
We have had this happen too many times and the lessons are not beig learnt? Why not?
Posted 1 year ago # -
Yes there is a problem in the MET of thuggish behaviour. But what about individual responsibility?
Posted 1 year ago # -
I have no issue with the cop being charged if he has behaved outside his training and instruction and there is a realistic chance of a prosecution
i want to see the senior officers there alongside him to explain how he came to be there in that mood and took those actions
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ is right
It's not just senior police though, where do they get their instructions from do you think?
The containment and actions in dispersing the climate camp have been deemed unlawful also.
All coppers should be ashamed to support a system that allows this to happen.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ, I agree with you on that. I suppose my assumption is that his official training would never sanction that behaviour. However custom and practice may be entirely different and this may be normal behaviour. Doesn't make it ok though.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Maybe its time he spoke out about tactics and instructions, you would have hoped a mans death would have been enough incentive for the people we give power and authority to, supposedly to protect us. Hundreds of cops would have known of the instructions and tactics that day, its quite horrendous to think not one of them has the decency to actually act in the best interest of the public and actually be honest.
Posted 1 year ago # -
yossarian, I think we may be about to get banned from STW. Isn't there something in the T&C's about not being allowed to agree with TJ? That's two agreements in the space of 5mins. We might break the Internet.
Posted 1 year ago # -
CHB - I am not sure he did act outside his training and instruction - you see - or not by a lot. Just his misfortune that Tomlinsons insides were like a rotten tomato ready to burst.
Its the desire to cover up that leads to such things as the Patel autopsy and the cop lying under oath - now if the individual feels safe they are not going to be hung out to dry if they are honest and have acted honestly then we have a much better chance of getting to the truth and preventing this happening again.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Posted 1 year ago #
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The PC had a Duty of Care to uphold on that day the same as you and i have to each other when we walk / drive/ cycle past each other in the street, i believe and i hope a jury agrees with me that he breached that duty of care.
Posted 1 year ago # -
That's why I said "assumed".
Posted 1 year ago # -
TJ whether his insides were like a rotton tomato is of no consequence, you take your victim as you find them in law.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Aye but any other man in that crowd would not have died
Breached his duty of care - negligence? wasn't careful enough when he pushed him away? Seems reasonable. Not going down for that tho
Posted 1 year ago # -
How do you know?
For all I know I may have a undiagnosed heart problem. Can't tell til you push me over and I die.
Posted 1 year ago # -
They may have banged their head and suffered a bleed, the PCs blow may have fractured a rib leading to a punctured lung we dont know, but the question to answer is why the PC felt his actions were justified and as a man died as a result of those actions a courtroom would seem a fair place to discuss it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
It has been decided the Ian Tomlinson was unlawfully killed.
What should now be decided (at trial) is whether Harwood is criminally responsible.(IMO he most certainly is). To gain a conviction the prosecution need to prove intent to cause harm or recklessness (as to whether harm would be done). Negligence would not come into it.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Its not like the met havent done this kind of thing before and got away with it. Blair Peach.
Posted 1 year ago # -
1. the defendant owed a duty to the deceased to take care;
2. the defendant breached this duty;
3. the breach caused the death of the deceased; and
4. the defendant's negligence was gross, that is, it showed such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime and deserve punishment.Posted 1 year ago # -
Negligenge is not criminal (although there are certain exeptions).
His actions would be fairly easy to prove criminal IMO. Manslaughter should be the charge he faces.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Harwood had attacked 5 people, including a BBC cameraman, in the 8 minutes before attacking Tomlinson. However I can't see the DPP making a case against him since he was only doing his job.
Posted 1 year ago # -
TandemJeremy - Member
We don't know the stress and strain that cop was under,
But we do know he chose to be where he was, rather than where he was supposed to be, and that when asked to explain that he lied as to his reasons.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Saw an interview with a BBC cameraman who was filming a protester being hit with a baton. He was grabbed from behind and thrown to the floor by this same officer, CCTV footage showed it also.
Sounds like he lost control after 14 hours in the midst of the protest (and probably a lot of provocation); some body died and now he has to live with that.
Posted 1 year ago # -
Anyone who has had the misfortune to encounter the TSG or any other incarnation of these bully boy outfits will know that they are never far away from this kind of tragedy.At least this time there antics were caught on CCTV and he even had his numbers on.
Posted 1 year ago # -
I am in agreement with the decision we can debate the copper when he faces charges
Posted 1 year ago # -
Sounds like he lost control after 14 hours in the midst of the protest (and probably a lot of provocation); some body died and now he has to live with that.
He hasn't shown any remorse or told the truth, so he seems to have been living with his actions quite comfortably, hopefully that will now change.
Posted 1 year ago #
Topic Closed
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