My old dad would be ashamed of what the benefits system has become
He left the RAF in 1947 to go back down the pit

He spent the next few years as a union leader and local Labour Party policy advisor
They built us a great system and we’re letting it implode.

Sandwich, I see your point, obviously my thought was just that and I would hope Government policy would consist of more than one sentence and have a lot more thought behind it to protect those currently in employment.

But in reference to your comment about unskilled labour all going on the dole, you are highlighting what is wrong with the current welfare system:

Minimum wage for 21 and over is £6.08, on a 45 hour week that’s £273.60, two working parents and that’s £547.20 a week before basic rate tax so that’s (hang on a mo, i need a calculator …..) somewhere in the region of £495 after tax. The family in question on the BBC website get £582.40 per week without having to pay tax. Who is better off? the working family or the one on benefits? This is an illustration using a case I know little about but I think you get my point here.

Just in case you were wondering, the proposed £26k a year = £500 a week.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that society should support those who need it but I also believe that you should not be better off on benefits than in work or there will never be an incentive to get work will there.

I wonder how many people are going to read that story and walk away thinking it’s a good example?

Minimum wage for 21 and over is £6.08, on a 45 hour week that’s £273.60, two working parents and that’s £547.20 a week before basic rate tax so that’s (hang on a mo, i need a calculator …..) somewhere in the region of £495 after tax. The family in question on the BBC website get £582.40 per week without having to pay tax. Who is better off? the working family or the one on benefits? This is an illustration using a case I know little about but I think you get my point here.

If you’re comparing like for like, then the working family in your example will also be receiving child benefit and likely other top up benefits.

Don’t get me wrong, I believe that society should support those who need it but I also believe that you should not be better off on benefits than in work or there will never be an incentive to get work will there.

OK, so make taxes less of a burden on those working on low wages, increase taxes on the well-off to pay for it (and spend more on combating tax evasion/avoidance, which has been proven cost-effective).

Simple.

Funny how there’s never the same tabloid induced outcry about tax cheats/avoiders, wonder why?

Yeah, but the ones on benefits have got the time during the day to burgle peoples houses while they’re at work, and fit in a bit of shoplifting. So they’re quids in really

the computing world moves on – if he’s got obsolete skills he’s got little chance of finding a role.

nothing to stop him learnign new ones in 10 years though, it has to be said.

Yes and no – I agree that his skills from 10 years back are of little use today, but as a programmer with a fair amount of free time it shouldn’t take him more than a month or two (at most) to pick up a new language, obviously not to expert level but enough to get a job. But yes, he’d probably need to move.

I do find myself (much to my horror!) agreeing with TJ though: given enough benefits claimants there will always be a few that seriously* abuse the system, and they’re the ones that the media will pick up on.

* Seriously abusing the system: if you’re unemployed and a mate pays you 50GBP to help him move house it’s probably illegal, but personally I don’t have a problem with it…

Funny how there’s never the same tabloid induced outcry about tax cheats/avoiders, wonder why?

The Guardian are quite quiet on the issue as well…..

10 years out of work is just taking the piss big time
he either…..

a) is lazy
b) earns more not working

either shouldn’t be allowed under any circumstances

The other thing to consider with moving from benefits to work is not just how much you earn but the extra. If you go from 10000 per year on benefits to 11000 in a job working a 35hour week then you could argue that you ar ebetter off in work. However, many would see that as working 35 hours a week for £1000 as they could get the other £10,000 doing nothing. So not only do you need to be better off but it needs to be worth your while.

Vinneyeh – good point, my mistake. child allowance is £20 odd quid a week isn’t it? not sure on the other benefits as I am fortunate enough to be in employment.

Grum – you’re right, those that cheat any system need to be held to account and those that make the system need to work to reduce the holes used by people to legitimately avoid paying.

10 years out of work is just taking the piss big time
he either…..

a) is lazy
b) earns more not working

I agree, minimum wages should be higher.

Don’t get out much, by the way, Jota? Plenty of work for everyone all over these islands is there?

The Guardian are quite quiet on the issue as well…..

They’re not that quiet on the issue, although maybe they’ve quietened down a bit since it was revealed that they use some kind of off-shore accounting practices themselves.

Five Live were on about it this morning too

This morning, for example, I learnt that Amazon pay not a penny of tax in the UK

That was sort of the point, Grum, not just the tabloids who have a problem there!

This morning, for example, I learnt that Amazon pay not a penny of tax in the UK

Thank **** their new base is in Scotland

Binners – corporation tax is all about where the company is registered, Amazon are registered in Luxembourg, not sure what their rates are but I think it’s fair to say they are less than here.

Jota – that Scottish base won’t make any difference.

Don’t get out much, by the way, Jota? Plenty of work for everyone all over these islands is there?

We’re talking the last 10 years here vinnyeh not months
we couldn’t get enough people [engineers mates on £18K]3 or 4 years ago
we were based in Stockport too

This morning, for example, I learnt that Amazon pay not a penny of corporation tax in the UK

FTFY

They pay NI, rates, PAYE etc here, and corporation tax where they are incorporated, but I get your point.

Hardly alone though, are they?

I’m pretty sure in France you get a very good percentage of whatever you were earning before

IT’s about 70 percent of your gross salary, minus 7 days and the holidays. For two years. Then you get the RSA so about 400€ a month.

Trouble is, just about all the companies who do business here seem to be registered in Luxembourg, the Cayman Islands, Belize etc for tax purposes.

But lets not think about them, lets give ‘benefit scroungers’ a kicking. I can’t think why News International (who pay less than 1% of its income in tax) for example, don’t highlight the issue more?

Vinney – surely THEY don’t pay PAYE. Their employees do. Thats a very different matter

I notice she suffers from one of those “illnesses” that regularly crops up with people like that, y’know, the ones that are very difficult for a doctor to disprove… Illnesses that you can claim are debilitating with little or no evidence to the contrary… Illnesses that seem to affect quite a few people of the hard-working persuasion who seem to manage or treat the symptoms enough to hold down regular employment without any difficulty whatsoever…

Y’know, like agoraphobia, anxiety, ME, back pain, asthma…

Just sayin like…

Are we suggesting we mimick mainland Europe and INCREASE benefits? See all that stuff about a crisis in Euroland? Guess what, they are tightening their belts like crazy over there.

Because of a calender quirk we just had a 5.2% rise in benefits payments yet public sector workers (and just about everyone else) are getting nothing for the forseable future. Utter madness.

We want to take everyone out of income tax up to £10k at least.

binners – nothing we can do about corporation tax, if we have different rules then they’ll just not bother trading with the UK or our prices will rise. As we’re not self sufficient we’d be cutting our nose off to spite our face.

In general the public could ensure they buy British from British companies, this would help the matter but we’re talking years for it to have any impact. But there’s nothing to stop you or I making that change right now.

We’d be better off closing the loopholes that many companies that are registered in the UK use to avoid paying tax while staying within the letter of the law.

Illnesses that you can claim are debilitating with little or no evidence to the contrary… Illnesses that seem to affect quite a few people of the hard-working persuasion who seem to manage or treat the symptoms enough to hold down regular employment without any difficulty whatsoever…

Y’know, like agoraphobia, anxiety, ME, back pain, asthma…

I’ve got one of those illnesses. And yes I manage to hold down a job and don’t claim any benefits – but if I could only get inflexible, physically demanding minimum wage work it would be extremely difficult to do that.

Again, I’m sure some people abuse it – but rather that than people who are genuinely struggling are accused of being lazy scroungers eh? Oh…..

TandemJeremy – Member

No luxuries at all allowed if you are unemployed – bare basics for survival only despite the fact we do not have work for millions of people

So are fags on booze esentials? These peope, seem to do OK out of our benefits system.

Conversely, after my old mum had her second heart attack she was directly instructed to give up work by her doctor. But she was refused any benefits because she had voluntarily given up employment.

Subsequently several folk told her the “correct” answers to put on forms, but she refused to lie so she got nowt.

What I find hard to believe is that a computer programmer could be out of work for 10 years: a miner or shipworker, I could understand, but a programmer???

I have a mate who is a Fortran expert from the days when Fortran was a mainstream programming language. He might as well be a coal miner with that skill-set.

He learned the basics of C++ on a night course and got a job working on a C++ project fixing code. The problem was that the code he was fixing was so huge, undocumented, badly organised and ill-supported he could not do the job. He’s given it all up now.

madhouse – I agree with you on that. Is there by any chance you can get hold of accurate information about which companies regard UK tax as a minor inconvenience to be dispensed with?

200 fags AND a packet of rolling ‘baccy… where’s the “bag of weed” cost in their weekly spend then?

Incentives!

People act on the incentives they are given. Why work when you can get free housing and a more money than the minimum wage.

So;
1. Decrease the taxes / disincentives to minimum wage earners / maybe increase the minimum wage / remove any barriers to employers
2. Disincentivise living on the dole – If you want to live on the dole and are;
a: single – government supplies dormitory accommodation with canteen food
b: in a family – larger family accommodation with canteen
c: disabled/OAP – humane level of support as necessary

Free roof over your head / food / health care / basic job help – should be all that tax payers should pay for. Make it civil but not so comfortable that people don’t feel the need to get back on their feet.

Safety net not a safety water bed and down duvet!

where’s the “bag of weed” cost in their weekly spend then?

They get that for free because they are dealing too, duh!

wanderer – did you just suggest bringing back the poorhouse?

Possibly. It’s hard to know what the right course of action is. Are those in the BBC case the norm or just the few. I work with a lot of people on the minimum wage who would be better off (financially) on the dole.

So I know at least that part of the system is wrong.

I’m a big believer in hard work should get you somewhere. If you don’t want to work then that’s cool – but I don’t think you should get a free ride.

Living in London, I see so many people who are obviously scamming the system – it makes my blood boil that I have to work so hard to pay for their free house as well as my rent!

binners – not really, I knew the Amazon thing due to there being an invoice of theirs on my desk! Companies House and associated websites (which are probably easier to use) will tell you if a company is incorporated in the UK, if they’re not on that list then they are registered elsewhere (obviously).
Although you will need to work out if holding companies are involved as the trading name may not be the same as the publicly known trademark. Even then if they are registered in the UK if they are part of a group they may still get away with it.

Most companies websites will have their registered office on, which may give their true location away but that’s not definitive either. If they’ve an investors section you’ll get more information from there, a quick look at their annual accounts will be telling as more often than not they’ll use the currency of their country of domicile.

So basically it’s all a big complicated minefield.

He learned the basics of C++ on a night course and got a job working on a C++ project fixing code. The problem was that the code he was fixing was so huge, undocumented, badly organised and ill-supported he could not do the job. He’s given it all up now.

As opposed to sticking it out, and applying for a new job at the same time?

He has brought shame on us the WELSH, with his portrayl of the benefits he is legally allowed to get paid.

But surely he would like a job to get him away from the wife and kids, as most men do.

See a lot of this at my work.. Folk with alcoholism, drug addiction and mental health probs.. Like someone already mentioned these folk seem to think they’re entitled to their benefits despite never working a day in their lives. I accept that a lot of these folk are ill and do need help. But not to maintain the sort of lifestyle as detailed in the BBC article.. I accept it may have been written to polarise opinions (or troll) but I’m sad to say I see the same thing most days I’m at work.
Challenged folk about it a few times (until I realised how pointless it was) and they’re answer was that theyre sick and deserve it.. That’s what our benefits culture has turned into, a place where someone believes it’s their right NOT to work at all during their life if they have some sort (any) sort of illness. I have asthma but in general (apart from maybe if I have a bad chest infection for acouple of weeks or something similar)im able to do a reasonably physical, demanding job. Mind you, ive never smoked and am not a heavy drinker (ie, 24 cans of lager a week!) but feel a lot of folk just play the system, and mostly, get away with it. Wecsntgo on like this.
I really do despair sometimes.
And then I think what their five kids are gonna turn out like and it gets worse.
Think something has to be done now, not 100% sure the cap will sort it out, but I guess it’s a step in the right direction..