Agree with Peter.
Most people would love the experience and respect those wild areas,but as soon as you increase the traffic,you get more:-

I’m still on the fence with this one, but don’t really believe that the sort of behaviour seen in Glen Etive would be encouraged by a network of huts, as people would still need to hike to the huts!

i.e. the arseholes causing that mess up there ^^ aren’t going to haul all that crap in any sort of distance (I still think an enforced ban on overnight parking in Glen Etive would solve most of the problems in one fell swoop…)

wanmankylung – Member
I think it’s a good idea. You never know it might even lead to the creation of more inspiring long distance routes through the more spectacular parts of the highlands.

And the pressure to widen and sanitise all the paths.

If they want to reintroduce species like wolves, I’d prefer they spent the money on bringing back the native species most recently eradicated from the Highlands. You can see the remains of their shelters all over the so called “wild” lands (that’s if they haven’t been razed by forestry or used for drystane dykes).

Trying to recreate the past is BS. Which era will we reproduce? 8-10,000 years ago? A couple of thousand metres of ice would work. After that humans were an integral part of the Highland landscape and shaped it right from the end of the Ice Age. Without humans in sufficient numbers doing what they did back then, reintroducing things like wolves etc is just the further Disneyification of the Highlands.

Most of the alpine huts I’ve been in had shared sleeping areas.

Good point about demographics though we’re already supporting walkers who want to experience the Highlands but aren’t prepared to carry overnight gear or walk up a reasonably small hill.

My actual thought was young, single women possibly being adverse to spending the night alone with some of the ‘characters’ you get in bothy’s, rather than the old and fat. I doubt the old and fat would want shared sleeping areas anyway.

thisisnotaspoon – Member
My actual thought was young, single women possibly being adverse to spending the night alone with some of the ‘characters’ you get in bothy’s…

That’s why we old blokes prefer to sleep rough. We’re terrified of what those fit young single women would do to us in those bothies… 🙂

Cracking idea. Let’s add lots of forms of civilisation to the wild so that people who don’t wasn’t wild can pretend they do. Of course it won’t be wild then but who cares if we screw up what we have so that a few more people can have what they want rather than what they deserve. Nowadays wevthink we have a right to everything and if it isn’t there in the form we want we will damn well make it or more likely pay someone else to do our dirty work for us. If you are not able to walk into the depths of Knoydart or where every then tough luck. Do not down grade it to suit you. Accept that life is what it is not what you want. The idea that every single pretsdon has a right to do everything is complete crap.
Just look at the wear and tear around the popular bothies. That’s good is it. I defy anyone to justify the statement that the top of Annoch Mor is better for having the cable car there. It’s a mountain. If you want cafes go to a shopping centre.
As has been said the infrastructure is there already. If you don’ t like that don’t ruin things for others.
Very mild rant that totally fails to express my feelings over.

Of course it won’t be wild then but who cares

The best way to describe the highlands, or the Lake district, Peak, Snowdonia or indeed a lot of our ‘wild’ places, is “post agricultural wasteland”. What you see is very little, if anything to do with how it would look if it was wild.

After the F&M outbreak 15 years ago there was a very real worry in the National Trust that a lot of areas where sheep farming was already barely viable would simply revert back to their natural state. Adding mattresses and running water to bothy’s won’t change that.

The best way to describe the highlands, or the Lake district, Peak, Snowdonia or indeed a lot of our ‘wild’ places, is “post agricultural wasteland”. What you see is very little, if anything to do with how it would look if it was wild.

Agreed.

From a selfish point of view I would like to see some alpine type huts on the way into remote winter climbing venues.

Much of our Highland landscape is what Frank Fraser Darling called “wet desert”. The landscape has been managed in an ecologically bankrupt fashion for decades – first with sheep and then for deer and grouse. The extent of the ecological abuse and landscape abuse ( Land Rover tracks) of these wildlands by sporting estates ( all taxed at a zero rate) is massive compared with any proposed hut network. If a network of huts could become financially viable, maybe even more viable than current sporting interests, then we would have a chance of reducing the high deer numbers and the heather burning that is maintaining the wet desert. If that was the case, I would support them.

i.e. the arseholes causing that mess up there ^^ aren’t going to haul all that crap in any sort of distance (I still think an enforced ban on overnight parking in Glen Etive would solve most of the problems in one fell swoop…)

Aye, and a simple clarification of the wild camping rules such that being within (say) 1 mile of your car isn’t wild camping. Or possibly even being within 100m of a public road!

…Just look at the wear and tear around the popular bothies. That’s good is it…. …As has been said the infrastructure is there already….

Sounds like the infrastructure is unable to cope with demand! Perhaps if they provided some basic sanitation, it would be a step toward the “vision” that the ramblers assoc. are suggesting – perhaps if they added some basic mattresses then people might be willing to pay for those facilities and their upkeep.

If you want cafes go to a shopping centre.

who was proposing building cafes?

I think it was Cameron McNeish who did a piece on the Norwegian huts on the Adventure Show a year or so ago. It looked a fantastic system. After a day’s hiking he ended up at a very smart wooden chalet (a bit like an old-style youth hostel, but with Scandinavian build quality) with a fully equipped larder of tinned food and other supplies; you simply help yourself with a sort of honesty box payment system. The users seemed to be responsible for tidying up after themselves, although there must be some centralised service to manage re-stocking and rubbish. There seemed to be a very comprehensive network enabling various routes through the mountains.

I’m not sure whether it’s a good idea in principal for Scotland, or whether it would actually work in practice. I understand the concerns about “dumbing down” access and building more permanent accommodation in the remote areas, but it seems to work on the continent without spoiling the outdoor experience. I think the practical issues about building and managing a network might be more of a problem. The Norwegians seemed to collectively buy in to the responsibility of looking after the hut network. It appeared to be part of their culture and was obviously very popular. McNeish looked a bit amazed that it all seemed to run so well, and I have to admit my first thought was that something like that here would just get trashed!

I wonder if it would be possible to establish a network that covers a decent area in Scotland, rather than a few huts that just become another long distance footpath? It would take some serious funding and organisation to make it happen.

The best nights camping I have ever had was in Etive during the rut. I spent a couple of days in a glen that was still rarely visited,burst myself by day and lay in the tent with a wee medicinal dram listening to the Stags. I am dreading going back and dispair of the mindset that thinks it is OK to abuse it the way it now is.That would be an undoubted side effect of opening the hut network proposed.

“Just look at the wear and tear around the popular bothies. That’s good is it.”

“Sounds like the infrastructure is unable to cope with demand!”

Sounds like some **** cant follow simple rules – Wont be the first time ive gave shit for some **** who feels he can just leave a turd less than 10ft from the bothy and nearby waterways.

Cant drink the water near ryvoan thanks to these people ……. Watch where you drink from at other popular bothys.

I’m more than happy to be self sufficient if I get benighted in an emergency, but I’ve no desire to hump a heavy pack into the ulo anymore. Been there, done that.

So you want to change the character of the highlands because you’d like to stay overnight and can’t be bothered carrying a tent?

As others have pointed out the comparisons with other countries are spurious because a. They have a long tradition of such accommodation and b. They have much larger areas of wilderness that require overnight stays.

I’d happily up MBA membership fee if it resulted in toilets being built. Mainly to get away from the midge.

So long as it doesn’t end up like the bog at Mossdale Cottage, dear God I’m glad it was well below zero that day. Literally heaps of the stuff.

So in conclusion the bothy system isn’t working because it’s too popular with the kind of people who don’t bring a spade and rubbish bag?

But the solution is to do nothing rather than change it a bit, go slightly upmarket, charge a few £ and employ a cleaner?

Yes that’s 100% it 🙄

I take it you think all those plucky,stout natives will be falling over themselves to take your shilling,clean the shit you can’t be bothered bagging/burying then vanish into the mist a la Brigadoon?

But the solution is to do nothing rather than change it a bit, go slightly upmarket, charge a few £ and employ a cleaner?

? isn’t that back to yoof hostels, and I **thought** that they had to sell of lots due to lack of demand/use – ?

I sort of half like the idea but I can’t get a slight rework of the the ‘not the 9 oclock news’ (or whoever it was sketch) out of my mind –
‘come home to a real fire, build a lot of log cabins in Scotland’

*based on personal bothy visits
– nearest live trees – a strange very,very stumpy breed with no leaves or branches, just a short stout stem with a flat, wide top
– piles of crap (both the excrement and the litter type)
– helpful things left behind in bothy, like empty bottles and tins etc

*edit – and also I prefer wilderness to be that – it sort of defeats the visiting the wilderness plan once it’s got facilities – just imho

Yes that’s 100% it

Well what is ‘it’ then?

Clearly the wild hard men of STW consider the average bothy to be beneath them and full of people who don’t deserve to be there.

And clearly everyone else needs a toilet and a rubbish bin.

Definitley think that a number of bothies I have visited could benefit from a properly dug long drop latrine or similar.

As above, this runs the risk of being either a hugely expensive way of providing posh bothies, or a cheap but unsustainable/unprofitable way of providing new youth hostels.

Is there room for something between the two? I think there really is – stayed at a couple of camping barns with proper bathrooms and kitchens over the years and I can see them being really attractive up in the highlands, but I’m still not sure if it amounts to much more than a posh Bothy.

So you want to change the character of the highlands because you’d like to stay overnight and can’t be bothered carrying a tent?

In a nutshell, yes.

Quelle probleme?

May I just add that I don’t think for one second that the Highlands are going to be turned into a concrete urban wasteland as some here seem to think & would oppose any such thing.

But rather a small network of maybe half a dozen decent huts which are actually worth staying rather than some damp rat infested hovel with piles of excrement left out for me to enjoy.

the solution is to do nothing rather than change it a bit, go slightly upmarket, charge a few £ and employ a cleaner

This would be a far better option imho. Leave the majority of bothies untouched for those who still want that experience, but theres no downside to introducing a bit of comfort into the equation. Trust me, one day you’ll agree!

I’m conflicted on this. One one hand I want everyone to experience the most beautiful, remote areas of Scotland. On the other, it’s already there and has been for a long time and if you want to see it you just have to go. We shouldn’t have to build special huts because some people can’t enjoy their surroundings unless they’ve had a shower.

+1

I don’t really get how the hut thing would work. Either they are close enough to “civilisation” for water, electricity, re-stocking etc to be viable in which case they aren’t really remote. Or they are remote and the services aren’t supplied in which case it’s just a bothy.

The vast majority of the highlands can be accessed with a day walk or bike ride so it’s hardly exclusive to those who are happy to carry a tent etc.

I also worry about a hut network encouraging those who don’t have the skills to be out in that environment. In the 80’s (?) several of the bothies in the Cairngorms were destroyed as walkers felt safe walking to them as a safe haven when the blizzards come in. IIRC there were a couple of children killed in a group trying to get to Corrour in a storm. The argument at the time was that the bothies encouraged recklessness and people took risks they wouldn’t have taken if the bothies hadn’t been there. A hut system could make this worse as it gives the impression of safety when walking between them and if a storm does come in then these people are potentially out with nothing more than a water bottle and a change of pants.

In addition you only have to look at the state of some of the botthies to see that unfortunately a significant minority of people just abuse the facilities. “Free food” as I’ve forgotten my money for the honesty box. Run out of coal, no matter, we’ll burn the mattresses and beds.

I suppose I don’t object to the theory, (although I don’t really support it), but I just can’t see it being viable.

Edit – it was 6 children who died:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12134893.Journey_to_death_mountain_Thirty_years_ago_six_children_left__for_an_adventure_weekend_in_the_Cairngorms__Only_one_came_back/

Maybe something like these camps in West Australia would do the trick.

Open to the weather, so you camp on the lee side, but a roof to keep the wet off. A bit like a Hebridean bus shelter.

That would be sufficient for most current outdoor users, and not encourage unprepared glampers.

Canny say it bothers me. I’ve no interest in using a hut style system or bothies.

I’ve already mentioned it but Alltbeithe YH is off-grid and seems to function OK. I could envisage a few more like that, but a Hut system as we see abroad usually includes catering of some sort so still a slightly different proposition.

If it can work in other countries then it could work in Scotland. I think it’s more a question of “do we want it to? ”

If it encourages more weegies out to litter the place and turn it into a dump then clearly a very bad thing. Loch Lomond was horrific in places last time I visited. I’ve never been to a similar type location elsewhere in the UK with so much rubbish dumped.

TBH as we have no culture of huts they are either likely to end up as dumps or the preserve of the well off, with big eroded paths to and from them and the nearest munro.

If people moved to a fast & light mentality then there is little in Scotland you can’t do already by just going between B&B’s.

But rather a small network of maybe half a dozen decent huts which are actually worth staying rather than some damp rat infested hovel with piles of excrement left out for me to enjoy

😯 What bothies are people staying in?? I’ve stayed in probably 50% of the MBA bothies and a few non-MBA, I can safely say this reflects none of them.

Re: the definition of ‘Wild’ for me is ‘largely empty of other people’ 8) I enjoy meeting a few like-minded souls in a bothy at the end of a big day out, but when I see crowds or tent villages I typically avoid. Selfish or no, making it easier for people to access the ‘wild’ spaces sort of removes the wild aspect for me. However, the benefit of being a tent wielding masochist is that there are always ‘wild’ spaces that the huts won’t make it to, so a few carefully sited huts wouldn’t bother me.

I decided against a four day trek to the the Mount Robson base camp in Canada when I realised that people were booking helicopter flights to the campsite, so instead of being a ‘basecamp’ at the foot of some spectacular mountain, it had become a sort of retreat for wealthy artists and day-hikers that could afford the cost of a helicopter flight. I don’t resent them their luxury, it just meant I went somewhere else instead…

I take it you think all those plucky,stout natives will be falling over themselves to take your shilling,clean the shit you can’t be bothered bagging/burying then vanish into the mist a la Brigadoon?

Lol, no. I was thinking more along the lines of a bio disc and soak away.

I’m kinda conflicted on this too. As a resident of Switzerland for a few years, and a biker, sometime hillwalker and also scout leader, the Huttes around here are a phenomenal resource.

One’s ability to plan a multi day walking trip, staying in a comfortable dorm each night, with great simple food and beer is truly amazing. Not to mention a toilet.

However, there is no inch of CH that is not carefully managed. There is really very little wild. And that grates.

I think that is worth preserving, and in true fence sitting style suggest there is probably plenty of space for both truly wild Scotland, and something a little more managed and accesible. Its not like the hihglands and northwest are overrun with folk.

Kind of in two minds. On the one hand the traffic on the WHW and the cash it brings to local communities it passes through suggests a market for waymarked walking routes with facilities. On the other hand (prepared to be corrected) I’m not aware of any huge numbers of walkers on the Southern Uplands Way, the Speyside Way etc.

For me the WHW is badly compromised as a route by the amount of time it spends within sight and sound of the A82. If a better route somewhere could be marked and publicised like the WHW using mainly existing tracks, paths and facilities with a few huts to link otherwise big gaps it might be a good thing.

I can see issues with landowners not wanting to encourgage WHW style traffic through what might be currently pretty low traffic areas. Encouraging inexperienced walkers into remote areas with no backup, phone signal, or easy bail out options might be problematic from Dec – March as well. So the huts might have a short season.

I’ve already mentioned it but Alltbeithe YH is off-grid and seems to function OK

Quite a lot of club huts are off grid too. Water off the hill and through filters to drink, waste into composting or bio and soak.

Bring back gas mantles? Maybe…

Why should enjoyment of the great outdoors be limited to those only prepared to work hard? Sounds a little unfair.

I think enjoyment of the outdoors should be open to all. That doesn’t mean that all places should be accessible to all people at minimum effort.

Our hills are small and mostly easily accessed. Let’s not erode what wild areas we have in the name of widening access or economic development.

Why should enjoyment of the great outdoors be limited to those only prepared to work hard? Sounds a little unfair.

I can’t help reading this as “Why should the rewards of a bit of effort only be available to those prepared to put the effort in?”

I appreciate not everyone is able to put the effort in, and it seems a bit harsh to just say “tough luck”, but I can’t help thinking of the difference between a trip up Snowdon and a trip up a mountain in Knoydart.

I appreciate not everyone is able to put the effort in, and it seems a bit harsh to just say “tough luck”, but I can’t help thinking of the difference between a trip up Snowdon and a trip up a mountain in Knoydart.

On the other hand landowners are allowed to bullzoze tracks so their clients don’t have to walk a few miles for shooting. A definite no for huts everywhere but a few huts as part of a marked route?

Even in the most remote bits, you’re barely, if ever, more than a few miles from a farm or steading of some form, so there’s no reason that camping barns etc. could not already be in place (potential here for some grants to assist in setting them up) as that way they would have a little more oversight and security.

One thing that does occur to me is that this proposal could be a brilliant tourism concept if it was done with uninhabited islands and inlets to promote sea kayaking etc. Rather than cluttering the mountains.

I think there is room for both the minimalist “wilderness” experience (be it wild camping or rudimentary bothy style accommodation)and more serviced style huts (few in number and in certain well thought out locations, possibly in association with some improved trails). One of the problems as I see it is that existing accommodation (bothies, hostels, bunkhouses and even B&Bs) is often not exactly where the walker/biker needs them to be – they are based in reused existing buildings; Another is quality: some – talking about bunkhouses/independent hostels – are an embarrassment. A better network of valley based accommodation would potentially be a reasonable benefit to the tourist (yes that’s us) and the local economy. Comes at a cost though – a lot of us don’t like paying much and therefore get what we deserve. Although the tourist summer may have been long this year it often isn’t, and many highland tourist businesses live a hand to mouth existence; the winter is long, and only a couple of places get the benefit of a hit or miss ski season.
Whatever it is it has to be economically viable. Organisations like SYHA can cross subsidise places like Ossian and Altbeithe only as long as the will is there, and an off the beaten track newly built “hut” wont be offering a bed for £20 a night – look at continental hut prices.

On the other hand landowners are allowed to bullzoze tracks so their clients don’t have to walk a few miles for shooting. A definite no for huts everywhere but a few huts as part of a marked route?

Yeah, it’s all in the detail isn’t it? In New Zealand I was actually a big fan of the hut network, especially the smaller ones away from the big name routes. Much preferred them to the big alpine huts where you can choose from their wine selection!

Of course, this all leaves Wales with the opportunity to capitalise on its existing tourist infrastructure – they could put luxury camping pods surrounding the cafe and bar at the top of Snowdon 😀