There are lots of buisinesses that try to sell on the "we're your friends" schtick – ST is a glaring example. Do not forget that people are in business to make money, and if they do so from a certain set of principles, then that's better than not having them, but just because Howies – like ST, or Innocent, or a host of others – market themselves in a chummy way, doesn't mean that they are not in it to make money.

I have no problem with the Howies marketing approach; it doesn't irk me, and neither does it ensnare me. I don't object to people running businesses on ethical lines – surely it is better than not doing so? And no-one is perfect – we can pick holes in everything. Everything is a compromise. But I would rather have the option of having ethically sourced merinos than no option at all.

Spot on. I have some Howies stuff, and although some of the "live your dreams"/tree-hugging stuff is too OTT for me a lot of the time there is at least some ethical accountability behind it. It's decent enough stuff (despite some odd T-shirt sizing) so good luck to them.

I'm guessing its a fake 'Im now going to set up a new brand based on my fake ethics-bollox and charge you £100 for hemp-faux trousers made in China but eco-loving crap'.

Watch this space. Its part of the guerilla-marketing.

'Take your customers with you on a new adventure'.

OMG, hora in got it nailed down watertight shocker!

Oh well, howies were cool while they lasted. have to weave my own hemp now 🙄

I've got a Marketing Degree for my sins and ever since everything is bollox 🙁

Its the first legible and sensible thing I think I've ever heard you say hora, well dones!

Cancel my last, it's a campsite and you will pay up to £460 for a weekend. In a tent. Of course, its environmentally friendly so there's no comfort afforded 🙄
****. That.

He He He. This whole thread is making me laugh.

Howies stuff not living up to expectations? Then don't buy anymore.

Worked for me.

and me.

It just irritates when the sh^tty place the world is catches up with something, whether it was well intentioned or not, was good.

I started reading the comments on the guy's final blog post and was actually sick in my mouth a little bit. That said, there are loads of other companies out there with different marketing strategies if all the "we're your mates" claptrap annoys you – the lovely people at Ralph Lauren, for example, who try to sue people who make fun of their stupid photoshopped adverts.

"ST is a glaring example" . I think the people from Howies used to work in advert before deciding to make their own company using the green tag. I don't think that's the case of the people from ST tower, decided to make a magasine based on "we are your friends" bla-bla. They were keen to do a bike mag, and the beginning was difficult, need our support and now they are happy the way it works (apart maybe the previous issue).

Howies USED to make decent, not terribly over-priced clothes that fitted. I've still got some.
Then they made expensive rarity-****-poser clothes for city boys who drove 500 miles to play on bikes and hung out at skateparks pretending not to be fund managers. Some of that stuff is still good quality, but because it's priced waay above anything I can afford, I'll never know if it's going to last.
I mean, how much for a scruffy satchel?

IME, Howies folks were always really nice when you spoke to them on the phone, so I bear them no ill will, but I expect that the Hieatts just wanted the equity on their house and their lives back after doing everything for years, and that's why they 'sold out' to Timberland. Good luck to them, they're good at what they do (firstly clothing, and now rinsing the wallets of 'carbon traders') but I won't buy their clothes any more.

They've moved on, and so have I.

"ST is a glaring example" . I think the people from Howies used to work in advert before deciding to make their own company using the green tag.

As far as I am aware, Howies started out as a clothing company first, adopting the "green" thing later. Hardly an endorsement of a cynical advertiser's plot to suck in the unsuspecting masses to buy stuff because "it's green, nam". Good grief, when they started out, the world couldn't have been further from a "let's get eco" desire.

I don't think that's the case of the people from ST tower, decided to make a magasine based on "we are your friends" bla-bla. They were keen to do a bike mag

I don't doubt they were. But the way the magazine is propositioned – which is necessarily part of its marketing – is that it's all-inclusive, matey and we're-all-in-this-together (viz Ferrentino's column).

and the beginning was difficult, need our support and now they are happy the way it works (apart maybe the previous issue).

WTF has how hard a start-up venture is got to do with anything? Loads of businesses start up in back bedrooms. Some grow big, others never make it past the bedroom door.

I am quite sure that the ST lads are happy (to the extent anyone is ever happy with an evolving product), but I think it's somewhat dubious to try to create a distcinction between businesses that follow a similar marketing ethos on the basis of "my prejudices like this one, but not that one".

I once bought an expensive bin-liner from Howies. It was called something like the 10 second jacket. Something to do with how quick you could get it on. But probably also to do with how quickly you'd realise you'd just been had.

In the beginning all the howies kit was pretty good, later on they did good kit mixed in with rubbish kit. Much like the way TNF went. Sold out and started making overpriced tat for fund managers.

i'm involved in an eco friendly, sustainable fashion business and if you're not playing by the book you will get caught out. we have to be careful about everything from the yarn to the dye to the workers rights. we get asked to ship unfinished garments to europe so they can have a button sewn on and then say made in italy…. we won't do it.

eco friendly and sustainable costs more – no way round it. but if you can cut corners, you can massage your margins.

IMHO howies was smoke and mirrors. finisterre seem to be their true heirs. shame they don't make biking things…..

iDave – care to share who your business is? Email is OK, if not happy on the forum.

YGM in 5 mins!

Is this a good time to point out that the bullish, ultimate, hardnosed point of a business is to make money? (Sorry Hora, but this – and I hate to say this – also includes Santa Cruz 😉 )

It's probably also a good time to point out that it's what the company does that brings value, not the fact that it's a money-making company. I mean, if our employers didn't ultimately make money they'd not be requiring our services, would they? And even governments need money-making people to tax, to pay for the services used by money-making people… It's all part of our beautiful rampant consumerist cycle.

Howies could finance arms deals in the middle east or test bottled milk on newborns in Africa, but it doesn't – it makes clothes, and appears to do so whilst concentrating on sustainability. Yes, it fuels our 'rampant consumerism', but isn't it better to fuel our little money-spilling disease with something that does a little less damage and pays fair wages throughout it's production, as opposed to the more disposable consumerism that other companies push for? Howies make no bones about you saving up for their clothes, whereas Top Man would like to see you in a new pair of jeans every Friday night.

I personally also like the fact that they try out innovative kit – it ain't cheap, but the Barrier hoody to me looks like something I'd be wearing a lot during the winter, especially after a dip in the North Sea or a spin where I have to get changed in a carpark afterwards before driving home.

Yeap – I agree that their kit could be a little cheaper and I'd like to see fewer items fail. But companies have ups and downs for various reasons – look at Manitou and Marzocchi – and it'll be interesting to see where both Howies and Dave H go from here. I have a hunch that Dave will still be keeping his finger in the clothing pie and I wouldn't be surprised to see something happening in a years time.

Sorry, iDave – sounds fascinating. My sister is quite involved in projects of that ilk as well – care to share with me too? Again, no worries if not. 🙂

PimpJ, sure, email me, tulga@me.com

Howies make no bones about you saving up for their clothes, whereas Top Man would like to see you in a new pair of jeans every Friday night

Good point this – I spoke to them not long ago to relate the sad tale of my beloved drizzler jacket (ridden in constantly for years) meeting an accident at Aonach Mor, and rather than suggesting a replacement they put me in touch with a firm in the north east of England that could fix it.

Their marketing approach is often nauseating, and some of the lines over the last few years have been a bit puzzling to me (but I'm not a stockbroker after a bit of zeitgeisty cool) but on the whole I'm still a fan of their gear.

Worth pointing out that I only buy clothes when I need them and when I do I expect them to last – I'm not rolling in cash, so its usually the sale for me – their clothes do last and do the job, for me anyway. Think I've only ever sent one thing back, and that was maybe 6 years ago.

People have a lot of strong feelings on Howies, which is a bit weird for something you're not forced to buy.

I've never run my own business, but I can imagine how difficult the balance must be when you need to grow the business because its successful against the feeling that its not yours anymore.

Very surprised to see they make merino products in China. NZ wool, shipped to the land of cheap labour and shocking human rights record…..

someone always pays for cheaper clothing

Personally I've always liked Howies stuff, their T's have imaginative designs, and their jeans are excellent. I've got three pairs of Skomers, because they fit me really well, they are very comfortable and I really like the styling. The fact I got all three pairs for around thirty quid each is a help, but seriously, anyone looked at the price of so-called designer jeans lately? £170 for some anonymous looking denim with rips in and some fancy embroidery on the pocket! Levi's will cost you the same as a pair of Howies. And as for Rapha, well… Cycling gear for rich City expense account types to wear with their fixie for the four hundred yard ride to their local posing spot with all their fakenger mates. £95 for a simple Merino top? Frack Off.

iDave, China does have a very poor human rights record, but you can't tar all factories with the same brush. Like every country there are good and bad factories, but isolation has never helped a country develop and improve human rights and worker standards.

Couldn't help taking a special interest in this thread, everybody is completely entitled to their opinions regarding howies and what we do but a couple of posts run quite close to my heart and day job

If anybody has any questions regarding how we source our products, how we ensure our factories meet our standards and what those standards are please email infoathowiesdotcodotuk. Your email will find it's way to me and i'll be happy to answer any questions.

mcgruff, I know there are some nice shiny factories in china. I also know that auditors get bribed, staff are manipulated and so on. And at the end of the day they do not have rights that we take for granted.

I think that isolation would be a more effective kick in the ass for the Chinese leadership than turning a blind eye.

If you're serious about the ethical side of your business, I can help you shift your merino operations to Mongolia – Buddhist democracy, minimum wages, unions, and the cashmere industry already produce exceptional quality fine knitwear.

You can't apply the one size fits all approach to this problem, it's far too complex to say that all workers in China lack the rights we have. You're ignoring some of the great work that is being done in China right now to improve things for everyday people. I simply can't agree that isolation will improve standards in a country. By choosing which factories to work with based on their approach to their employees sends a powerful message to other factories that employee standards are important.

We have a great system in place to ensure that our factories are providing for their employees and i would be happy to give you that information , but obviously not over an open forum.

mcgruff, sorry mate even if you had an Agent directly employed by you who lives/works closeby to the factory they'll still feed him/her info. Unless your agent has his own key and is allowed free access to all employees at any time.
They'll feed you what you want to hear for your audits. Ever asked them if an order can be produced quicker?

I know great work is being done in China. But you could source from countries where that great work wasn't necessary? A great factory in China is still a great factory in a country with an atrocious human rights record.

All workers in China do lack the rights we have. Free speech, freedom of association, for a start… there are others… you know this.

Going back to the OP, its pretty common in business for a founder to leave after a takeover, and in my view Howies was no more marketing lead than any other successful businesses. There is competition for your cash and consumers respond to stories not product specification… buy with your heart, the justify the purchase with your head.

mcgruff don't take this the wrong way- are you in your 20's? I know a few people in their 30's/40's who are quite senior in this industry and they know the party line and the flipside. You have a naive or 'US/Corporate PR' viewpoint.

…..they'll also feed the agent hush funds to ensure his reports are what the customer wants to read – great entrepreneurship!

Regardless of which factory you choose, you're still propping up and financing the Chinese government, who can hardly be praised for their attitude to human rights!

hora – as i mentioned previously i can't go into specifics on an open forum, but if you want to contact me at howies then i would be happy to give you details on how we tackle this particular problem. Not all audits are done the same way.

idave – it sounds like we both want the same thing but are coming at from different directions, by being in China we're trying to initiate the change needed through working practises and giving rights to those workers. If every company pulled out of China right now you would only hurt the workers, the Chinese govt would still be sitting in luxury and we wouldn't have any computers to use this forum. I would be really interested to get your thoughts on sourcing through Mongolia.

Happy to discuss Mongolian textile opportunities, I work with three factories there, all with exceptional equipment and ethics. email in profile.

Maybe if every company didn't go to China in the first place, and made it clear why they wouldn't, the changes we all want may have taken place already? Maybe you could try insisting that all your Chinese workers can access facebook, twitter and youtube……. 😉

In the nicest possible way. Ive been around the block a few times. I'm a bit jaded by reports/assurances etc. All the best mate. Hope you dont drop your rose-tinted specs.

Rapha, well… Cycling gear for rich City expense account types to wear with their fixie for the four hundred yard ride to their local posing spot with all their fakenger mates. £95 for a simple Merino top? Frack Off.

the jerseys (with pockets/zips/reflectives/stripes) are expensive but their merino base layers are priced between £45-£55 and often they have an offer on for 3 for £100. so their 'simple merino tops' are actually very good value.

hora, the offer is there for you or anyone else to have more information if you want it. No rose tinted spectacles but a significant number of years spent in textile factories.

mcgruff, this highlights the problem – as soon you choose china, you immediately put a company who have traded on their sustainable and ethical credentials on the defensive. fire fighting when you could be more productive with your Sunday morning…

mcgruff. Do your factories work exclusively/solely making only Howies products?

Every Australian knows that Kiwi merino is superior to any other country's merino because Kiwi sheep are more "loved".

epicyclo – Member
Every Australian knows that Kiwi merino is superior to any other country's merino because Kiwi sheep are more "loved".

LOL

Stepping away from the howies thing a bit, but…
I can't see how isolating a country and it's people brings any benefit. It is by trading with a nation that the people see outside influence.

the00, which would work better..

change regime/ethics and then we'll start to do business

or, we'll do business with you anyway and then maybe see if you can change a bit, or we might not do business with you any more, which would cost us a lot in lost expenditure……

the west is soft on china because it suits big business and that suits govt