Right! So why would building better cycling infrastructure in the UK involve running cyclepaths over “virgin countryside”?

local councillors will continue to make decisions which are rooted in their awareness of the short term impact on their political survival

I think that in practice this means “they listen to the group that shouts the loudest”. A cyclist/parent alliance along the lines set out in that video could be that voice.

Not just the car-bike segregation, but the bike-pedestrian segregation. In UK they just paint a white line down a pavement and call it shared use… put all the bikes in the “kids not looking when they open the car door to go to school” zone, rather than in the road with the “school mums not looking when they pull in/out” zone.
In Netherlands a “shared use” bikepath/footpath is often clearly marked, different surfaces, small kerbstone between the two. Pedestrian bit paved, bike bit in orange tarmac. And then often something (hedge etc.) between cycle lane and road.

Not sure how easy it would be to change the mindset of Brits either, with regards to bikes having RoW to cross T-junctions. And then roundabouts… having to give way at exits to the crossing cycle lane. That’ll never happen in UK.

Right! So why would building better cycling infrastructure in the UK involve running cyclepaths over “virgin countryside”?

Jeez… I’m not saying it should, although in some areas it would have to. The point I was trying to make (badly obviously) is that the existing built and natural geography of a country are a factor as well as the political will.

I think I’ll just get my coat now… 😕

Jeez… I’m not saying it should, although in some areas it would have to.

why would they have to?

Perhaps it would also depend on if you classify farmland as “virgin countryside” or as agricultural factories.

I am all for protecting “virgin countryside” bit there are only small pockets of that in the UK, and I wouldn’t see decent cycle paths alongside existing roads in those areas as having any real impact.

What we need to do is as the dutch did – take a bit of space away from the cars and give it to the cyclists,

If you wanted the same density of fully segregated cycleway provision as you have in Holland, I don’t see how you could avoid it. Canals and old railway lines are great as trunk routes but they don’t go everywhere. Sure you could upgrade existing rights of way and add in cycle lanes to existing roads, but in some cases there’s no room and you’d have to either widen or forge new routes.

sproketjockey – no – you need to take some space from the roads to build the cycleways – same total width of tarmac. but inste4d of a 12 m wide road you have a 10 m wide road and a 2 m wide cycleway – and if that makes the road into single track then so be it.

Its about rebalancing the use of space

If this link works it should be an example – this is common in the Netherlands – the road is used as a single track road and the cars pull over onto the marked cycle lane to pass each other

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=52.057241,4.662959&spn=0.020002,0.055747&t=h&z=15&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=52.057241,4.662959&panoid=ARRB90Gxh-4Mw2uXTxyH1A&cbp=12,0,,0,0

What to do with narrow rural lanes: http://waronthemotorist.wordpress.com/2011/10/27/on-country-lanes/

TJ – I understand completely. As I said, I lived there for several years. But that’s a two lane road reduced to single lane to allow for cyclists. The fact that the cars pull over into the cycle lane to allow passing means that it’s not fully segregated. I agree that’s a model which would work well in a lot of places but what about if it’s single lane already? – that’s the case with most of the roads where I live.

You’ll have probably have seen on your trip that a lot of Dutch towns and villages have dedicated cycleways connecting them which follow the lines of drainage canals, dykes and polders and are pretty much independent of the road network. To recreate that sort of thing here you couldn’t avoid building new routes or encroaching on green belt.

Actually, our roads have had room for cyclists, and so cycle lanes, for … ever. 30 yrs ago they could’ve been put in pretty much everywhere easily enough but cars got very wide (why!?) and the roads stayed the same. There’s a mint mk1 escort (I think) in Wells, it’s a saloon car, and it’s smaller than what we now call a mini. Mental.

Personally in the countryside I cant see why you cant knock down the hedgerows and just make the road wider. To allow cars and bike and Pedestrians.

Presumably you could regrow the hedgerow.

I reckon everytime a road is upgraded or retarmaced it should be widened to include all three transport methods.

The only reason not to is the cost as far as I can see.

but cars got very wide

This is so true !

you’d have to either widen or forge new routes

There’s photo on the Hembrow blog of them diverting a canal to put a cycle route in! I realise we’re not going to get to that stage overnight but it puts your concerns over road widening into context.

The reasons it’s not happening over here have little to do with climate, infrastructure or geography. It seems to be a mix of historic failure to provide for cycling, rejection of segregated cycle routes by a hard core who feel happier on the roads (CTC actively campaigned against cycle paths at one point), little to no provision for cycling at a policy level, and just utter ignorance of the benefits that mass cycling could bring.

There’s photo on the Hembrow blog of them diverting a canal to put a cycle route in!

I love that example. It was in order to avoid having a bridge over the canal and then back again later on. IIRC, they moved the canal sideways by 5 metres.

I anot in favour of cyclepaths everywhere – I like a whole range of solutions as they have in the netherlands.

The one I really like is in urban areas – 20 mph speed limit, no road markings and priority to pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars.

If you like Dave Hembrow, he features in a documentary film called Beauty and The Bike. (There’s a showing in Newcastle on Friday.)

(Very) short version:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M88sF-rvul0[/video]

There’s also a beardy cargo bike-riding ICT teacher in it too 🙂

The one I really like is in urban areas – 20 mph speed limit, no road markings and priority to pedestrians first, then bikes, then cars.

I really like that “Naked Streets” idea too – they also get rid of all the street furniture. There’s a couple of trials happening in the UK already. I like the idea that the motorist, in the absence of any familiar reference points has to slow down and is forced to interact with other road users. Again, horses for courses though.

Yep, again that’s quite popular here in Germany, but I think that it has to be a slow move to that in the UK.

I really like that “Naked Streets” idea too

Second (third?) this.
There was a great book my parents got about a guy who did this all over the world. His work reduced maximum speed, increased average speed, and reduced accidents. The blending of vehicle and pedestrian space makes everyone (EVERYONE, it’s not just the motorists) take more care, the lack of space makes everyone more courteous (they had to be) the lack of directed priority makes everyone more careful.

Basically, if there are no rules, you have to interact cooperatively.
no rules driving
And yes, it even works in the UK.

I really like that “Naked Streets” idea too – they also get rid of all the street furniture. There’s a couple of trials happening in the UK already. I like the idea that the motorist, in the absence of any familiar reference points has to slow down and is forced to interact with other road users. Again, horses for courses though.

They supposed to have done this on exhibition road London, but to honest it just looks like it going to be a normal road.

What has really annoyied me though is they have put these lights in the centre. but mounted them in these massive circlar rises which really reduce the width of the road.

No, I think that’s something completely different, naked streets are residential areas, no distinction between pavement and roads, no traffic markings or signage.

we can do it in the UK.

look at the this road:

B7078 – used to be the dual A74 when the M74 open they turned the road back to single carriage way and used the old bit of dual for a bike track…

only seems to be useful to Lejogers though (which is was!)

see streetview

http://tinyurl.com/3t8n3xt

Cambridge Guided Busway. Would be the best cycle path in the world if the blacktop went all the way to St Ives. As it is, it gets all bumpy and gravelly for the last 5 miles or so. Still pretty good though.

hey, we’ve got some great cycle paths in the UK, just look at this one, it even has a shelter to rest in half way along its length.

I love the way yo can almost guarantee any cycle path in the UK will disappear when its actually needed – like on narrow bits of road and at junctions

some beauties on here
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pete.meg/wcc/facility-of-the-month/index.htm