Seeing the huge numbers of bikes on the beach in the BOTB video has got me wondering how important we are to the Welsh economy.
Even if the people in the video just spent £10 locally that’s a nice little earner for them.
Are there any figures to show how much money bikers bring to Wales . Should other deprived /sparsely populated areas with forests get on board?

Oh dear…you mean like 7Stanes? Would be good but would then be done purely for tourism revenue and funding for that doesn’t cover maintenance…
Can you FOI the Welsh government/tourism board to ask for figures? I suspect they generate a lot of cash, but getting that cash spent across a huge area is hard if the appeal of riding in that wider area isn’t there…

Each bike liberated keeps the Glyncorrwg local neds in scag for about 30 mins, so it’s not to be underestimated.

Having lived in rural ceridigion for 18 years ,i’d say quite a bit indirectly and if you asked the welsh assembly in cymraig they’d have reply but if you ask in english you’ll be ignored.

Now live in Ireland and dominated by roadies overhere.

Working on it though !!

NRW say £23million but thats just MTB stuff, won’t include stuff like EG Dragon ride, Velothon or people coming over the bridge to use the Velodrome at Newport

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-31556008

Saw last nights Countryfile from the Ashdown Forest and realised what a complete waste of a resource/revenue stream banning bikes from the forest there is.

A family friendly cycle trail centre – something like Hicks Lodge up here – would bring lots of people to the area who would spend money for the day.

Glad we moved away from the NIMBYS down there though.

The impact can be slow and spread. Talking to some locals over here they prefer the ideas of business building slowly to match and adjust to the change as they will be more likely to stick around after the first bad day.
In that area there are offers on the local pub, cafe’s opening and houses finally selling.
https://www.specialized.com/au/en-au/destination-trail-tasmania
The internet has certainly changed how we launch these things, don’t think they did this for cyb

There’s a brilliant analysis for Laggan you can find online but tl;dr- the benefit to the local area returned the initial investment in a single year.

You’ve got to be a wee bit careful about this stuff because to some extent it’s just moving money around- if you go to BPW instead of innerleithen then sure you’re drawing money to one area but you’re not creating money, you’re just taking it from the borders. The real wins come when you create extra holidays, extra trips, get more people riding and that, I don’t think you can realistically measure tbh.

Lots,

I was very, very slightly involved with Cognation at the start of it and the figures involved certainly made the millions they invested seem like a good investment, I seem to recall it was £6 for North Wales and £5m for South Wales.

I personally think North Wales did a better job of things, I personally don’t think all of the money was well spent in South Wales and now it’s gone local councils seem very reluctant to maintain the momentum.

You can tell the how highly they rate it by the amount of MTB time shown on the ‘Visit Wales’ ads they run.

if you go to BPW instead of innerleithen then sure you’re drawing money to one area but you’re not creating money, you’re just taking it from the borders. The real wins come when you create extra holidays, extra trips, get more people riding and that, I don’t think you can realistically measure tbh.

The AIM Up promoters would do well to remember this. Talking to the folk at Cairngorm about MTB development, they’re deliberately not intending to compete with the Nevis Range DH tracks as they reckon it’s too small a market to share.

I believe a lot of the original funds for MTB centres were put forward by the EU as part of a sustainable development grant because – technically – Wales on its own was (is?) a third world country. So from that point of view I’d say they’re quite an asset.

Happy to be proven wrong on this!

I reckon year by year Mountain Rescue stats, overall and by team/area might give you a decent overview of changes to use.

The counterargument there is that multiple venues can grow the customer base- that definitely seems t be what’s happened in wales with the new uplift venues. Fort William could easily benefit from having a load more people doing uplifts at inners on a range of trails and going “this isn’t just for the mental”. And same argument applies everywhere. Instead of fighting over the current 10 people, try and get 30 people to do it.

(for the travelling pound, Afan doesn’t compete with Brechfa, BPW and Cwymcarn; having them all together makes a week in south wales a good option, if there was only one of those places no bugger’d go there)

Seems like most of Southern England view Wales as an outdoor adventure park, so I’d imagine quite a lot. North Wales has been full of people walking and climbing for decades, but not the South. However count how many nice MTBs you see on cars on the M4 on a Friday and you’ll get an idea.

Postwar, seemingly every other family from the North West had a weeks holiday in North Wales.

Not so much now, obviously, but campsites are always full on Summer Weekends.
Lots more day and weekend trips IME, but you don’t tend to spend as much on short visits.

We still go a lot, as do our non-outdoorsy childhood mates.
Taking the kids/grandkids camping in the same places you enjoyed as a child seems to be universal.

Seems like most of Southern England view Wales as an outdoor adventure park, so I’d imagine quite a lot. North Wales has been full of people walking and climbing for decades, but not the South. However count how many nice MTBs you see on cars on the M4 on a Friday and you’ll get an idea.

But those car’s are on the M4, and a lot of them go up on Saturday morning and back Saturday night, so if Wales is lucky they’ll buy lunch in a cafe. But there must be a pyramid above those, for every 100 people that drive from Swindon to Afan for the day, there’ll be 10 who stay for an evening meal, and one who stays in a B&B.

I’ll quite happily admit that I’m the bloke who arrives at the GT car park at 1am, buys an all day parking ticket, sleeps till sunrise, rides all day, cooks on a camping stove sat on the boot, bivi’s overnight, rides the next day and goes home. I think my sum contribution to the borders economy was a tank or petrol, 2 parking tickets, £20 in the co-op and a Chinese takeaway. Then again, that is probably £130, so it’s still not nothing despite being about as cheap as it could practicably be.

Well I see a lot on Friday night, so one would assume quite a few of them are staying. And there are plenty of threads on here about people staying over. Ok so it’s not thousands of people, but I bet it’s more tourists than would normally come to Glyncorrwg or Merthyr.

Where the tourists go is probably as important as how much they spend. I doubt anyone went up to Glyncorrwg ever unless they lived there, before the trail centre.

Pimpmaster Jazz – Member

I believe a lot of the original funds for MTB centres were put forward by the EU as part of a sustainable development grant because – technically – Wales on its own was (is?) a third world country. So from that point of view I’d say they’re quite an asset.

Happy to be proven wrong on this!

I don’t think we’re quite a 3rd world country, but there’s a reason why there are MTB facilities are in and around former mining towns etc and not in say Cardiff which has none really.

There’s typically a different ideology between Westminster Funding and EU Funding – Westminster typically goes for ‘efficiency’ so you get ideas like a 3rd runway for Heathrow – it’s one of the busiest airports in the world, it’s in one of the most densely populated areas in the UK so it “makes sense” to increase it’s capacity, but that sort of thinking inevitably leads to centralisation – we invest more in the the South East because that’s where the money is, and there’s more money there because we invested more there so it’s very self-fulfilling. This was the sort of thing that lead to Wales, Scotland and the North of England declining in the 70s’, 80’s and 90’s/

EU funding goes the other way, they prefer to invest in more deprived areas for redevelopment – you don’t get the quickest of biggest return on investment – but it creates wealth and opportunity where it’s needed most.

MTB investment is very slow to return I think, the Cognation project was probably enough to elevate the idea of a trip to South Wales from a day trip to a weekend for some people, but I think people coming here for a week like you might do for PDS or Whistler is still a way off, perhaps in 10 years there might be a lift running at BPW and a couple of lodges or something springing up to give people somewhere to stay and we’ll all be telling people to “get out of the park for a day” and ride the ‘real’ South Wales like they say about Whistler or such, but it’ll be a long road without a Ski Industry to bring in the big money in the off season.

Wales on its own was (is?) a third world country.

What?

That sort of direct economic measure is also very narrow in terms of benefits these sort of projects bring.

What does it do for local kids socially?
What does it do for the NHS in terms of wider health benefits?
etc.

£24million IIRC.

I don’t think we’re quite a 3rd world country…

It genuinely wasn’t meant to offend, hence the ‘technically’. I’m afraid history has blurred the exact reasoning, but I believe it was to do with Wales’s financial turnover as an independent country (as opposed to part of the union). At the time I was told this (by someone involved heavily with the Welsh MTB scene and its relationship with the FC) he compared it to how the EU viewed Poland.

…but there’s a reason why there are MTB facilities are in and around former mining towns etc and not in say Cardiff which has none really.

Quite. The fact there’s some amazing, accessible scenery is the icing on the cake.

Have heard a Casualty doc from the Heath in Cardiff muttering about the work they get now from BPW. Makes a change from thumbs dislocated by rugby balls and Friday night Caroline St shenanigans.

It genuinely wasn’t meant to offend, hence the ‘technically’.

I’m not offended at all, I just think it’s ridiculous even if there are official metrics. Ever been to an actual third world country?

But that’s digression. Anyway the Valleys has the topography and the cheap land. Around Cardiff most stuff is either posh people’s houses or the farms for their horses. Having said that, Cwmcarn is ‘around’ Cardiff by most standards, really.

A couple of summers ago as a follow up to the region wide eye opening economic impact study, Squamish bike association did a study on weekend bike traffic at key trail heads to establish the economic impact of mountain bikers visiting squamish. The number $4million was conservatively placed on the benefit to the town.
Since that report, biking traffic has increased further and we are seeing more multi-day destination visitors coming for a mini vacation and for the riding we have.
It is a key economic driver in this one small town with a 20k population.
Wales must be doing pretty well out of bikers.

study link

This study has been successfully used to procure grants and funding to build more trails to widens Squamish’s appeal to riders across all levels.

I just think it’s ridiculous even if there are official metrics.

So do I, but I also understand it. There are houses between the Afan centres that 10-ish years ago were on the market for around £11k.

Ever been to an actual third world country?

Yes. I lived in one for six months. 🙂

Cwmcarn is ‘around’ Cardiff by most standards, really.

Are you an estate agent, ‘around’ Cardiff 😆 I think you meant to write Newport.

Valleys has the topography and the cheap land.

Yes but a load of old slag heaps is hardly going to compete with the Alps or BC, so it’ll only be weekend warriors from Englandshire making the trip.

Cognation project was probably enough to elevate the idea of a trip to South Wales from a day trip to a weekend for some people, but I think people coming here for a week like you might do for PDS or Whistler is still a way off

We’ve been having at least one week a year in either the North or the South for the last 5 years.

If we do the North we stay around Capel Curig. Go to CYB, get a couple of uplift days at Antur, trip out to NYA and one or two natural rides.

There are loads of options to fill a week in the South. We can’t be the only ones who do this.

How many holiday rental places offer ‘secure bike storage’? ISTR in a comparable area of Scotland most do.

I remember, yonks ago, overhearing something said in a cafe at CyB. It was along the lines of ‘we are open all year, there was a chap just left, he comes for a weekend every month from S England. Most places here close in the winter.’

Maybe it’s not the usual seasonal holiday business.

I’m only in Brizzle, so I head over the bridge to ride regularly. Now I think about it, I’m sad to say that most of the money I spend is in a service station. Mainly because I can’t keep an eye on the bike (on the roof of the car) from the TC cafes, and/or because the TC food is a bit crap (cwmcarn) or horribly overpriced (CYB). I do tend to spend in the bike shops though, Skyline must have had a fortune out of me in odds and sods.

Yes but a load of old slag heaps

You’re being silly now. There’s 300m of elevation change at Glyncorrwg.

And yes it’s not Whistler, but of course it’s a hell of a lot cheaper. The two aren’t comparable. You might as well complain that Dacia aren’t as good as Mercedes.

29ers must be worth more to Welsh economy than 26ers

I tend to try and eat in a local cafe if possible, but last time I went to bpw the only place open at 07:30 – 08:00 ish in murtha tydfil was a tescos.

Last time I went it was arrive late afternoon, stick the tent up at the camp site, quick blast on Y Wal, pub dinner and then 5-6 hours on the rest of the trails (W2, bits of skyline etc). Not saying it’s better than the “natural” trails we normally ride down in Somerset but it’s a nice change and hoping to go back for a weekend this year and maybe do some other areas in south wales and probably stay in B&Bs and enjoy more welsh pub grub.

It genuinely wasn’t meant to offend, hence the ‘technically’. I’m afraid history has blurred the exact reasoning, but I believe it was to do with Wales’s financial turnover as an independent country (as opposed to part of the union). At the time I was told this (by someone involved heavily with the Welsh MTB scene and its relationship with the FC) he compared it to how the EU viewed Poland.

Growing up in the South Wales valleys every community centre, road, park, you name it.. had a “Funded by EU Objective One funding” sign stuck on it with the EU flag. Basically a scheme to invest in the poorer parts of Europe, so you’re not far off:

“Q1. What was Objective One?
Objective One was one of three programmes set up to help reduce differences in social and economic conditions within the European Union. (These three funding programmes were the biggest area of European spending after the Common Agricultural Policy.)

Of the three, Objective One was the highest priority designation for European aid and was targeted at areas where prosperity, measured in Gross Domestic Product (GDP) per head of population, was 75% or less of the European average.”

Just back from a road trip to North Wales. Great riding, amazing scenery. All on one bike.

Day 1: Coed Y Brenin, 60k , great trails, trail centre is really well set up, great food and facilities, probably best I’ve been to.

Day 2: AM Antur Stiniog, got 10 runs in, super efficient uplift, good facilities, pretty full on but great mornings riding.
PM Back to CyB, 30k and skills area

Day 3: AM Snowdon up & down, amazing morning bike & hike on the way up followed by a great descent. Above the clouds, sunshine, snow…fantastic
PM : Penmachno, did the first loop, about 30k . Really fun riding and different enough to make it worthwhile.

My wife and our dog came out on the train on Friday night and we hiked Snowdon the following day. In terms of contributions to the local economy we’re looking at 4 nights in B&Bs , 2 meals out, 2 nights in the pub plus bits and bobs at trail centers etc. The b&b owner in Blanau F said that she got lots of business from mtb riders using Antur Festiniog.

We benefited from great weather but the Mtb facilities were first class and make it easy to get quality riding in without too much fuss and will keep me coming back to Wales again and again. The scenery is stunning and the fact that I can get to South Wales in 2hrs and North Wales in 4 from west London makes it a no brainer. The only downside is that I seem to have developed an addiction to barra brin, if that’s what it’s called.

Try getting a weekend room (at 70 quid a night) at Afan Lodge between, ooh, May and September. We do a couple of multi night multi centre Welsh road trips a year, and as someone said above I think the number of centres increases business rather than compete against against each other.

I believe a lot of Wales development was EU supported, from funds rejuvenating deprived economic areas.

MTB must be worth more than ramblers and cavers put together. Ramblers buy a small drink, hog the fire and sweep the menu off the table to make room for their sandwich box, cavers come in the pub in huge groups, hogging the fire with one half a beer between them, sitting with their backs to everyone whilst slagging off the pub and the “unfriendly” locals on the Web. (Slaughtered Lamb comparisons, etc)

All I know is bikes are brilliant!

There’s so much potential in Wales to tap into something like this. And so little hope that anything much will happen. It’s the kind of thing the Welsh Assembly should be all over but they’re too busy managing Westminster austerity and squabbling about nothing.