e.g. if i were to organise a bike race for 60 riders how much would it costs? hundreds? thousands? free?

It would be in Scotland hence st. andrews ambulance is it?

We had them at the first HTN (cost about £1000 IIRC for 12 hour cover) and to be honest they weren’t much use. Their response to the only incident of the day (ligament tweak by somebody walking a muddy section) was:

1) Panic. Which resulted in all sort of Chinese Whispers that we spent the rest of the day dealing with… “Blimey has he really broken his back/leg/pelvis?”

2) Call mountain rescue to sort it out.

They admitted it themselves that they weren’t equipped for it and told us in writing afterwards that they wouldn’t be prepared to do it again.

I should imagine that this varies across the regions with some being more than capable. Unfortunatley our lot weren’t.

I would consider getting specific event medics for anything other than a run round an open field.

For later events we used these guys http://www.mmse.co.uk/ who know exactly what they are doing and have all the necessary kit should it me needed. I’d see if there is somebody similar locally.

I was rescued by some StJohns people with a 4×4 when I broke my hip.

They happened to be nearby at an event when I did it. No idea what the organisers paid but from my point of view it was money well spent.

Like I said… Some are better than others. Our lot struggled to retrieve a casualty less than 300m from their base in the arena and 30m from a road. There is no point in having a massive 4×4 ambulance if all you are going to do is switch the sirens and lights on scaring the crap out of everybody then call out mountain rescue.

The mountain rescue call out also meant that the police turned up.

If you are doing something off road then I would suggest walking the course with them. We issued maps and risk assessments which they clearly ignored as they were unprepared.

Sorry if this sounds bitter but it caused no end of trouble on the day.

agree – it’s as much about the training as the equipment.

We have them at our motorcyle evnts and they are great. Plenty of landrovers etc if needed. Cost might varybut briefly from the application forms we use:
per ambulance crew of 2 £90 for up to 5 hours, 180 for 5 – 10 hours and £15 per hour over that.
Shelter/first aid posts, £40 up to 8 hours, mileage 55p per mile over 3 miles from their base.

We organise a Raft Race every year http://www.deepingsraftrace.co.uk and use the red cross to provide medical cover. Over the past ten years we have had two heart attacks, a broken leg, a couple of broken wrists numerous cases of sunstroke, wasp stings and people drinking too much.

They take it all in their stride, call a real ambulance if someone needs hospitalising and all for a ‘donation’.

We get about 8000 spectators and competitors over a six hour period and normally donate around £500. They are happy with this arrangement and so are we.

Money Well Spent.

Just checked the figures form July 2010.

8 hours cover
1 x Ambulance
1 x Car
1 x Quad bike (out on the course – 6 mile loop)
Crew for all the above including comms equipment that actually worked!

£1592

Money well spent.

St John’s also left us with a rather large catering bill at HTN1.

True. They troughed their way through a couple of hundred quid worth!

MMS brought their own sausages and requisitioned a BBQ from the campsite.

it seems like red cross is a good shout since its just a small event i would be organising

You need to make an assessment of the risk, that should include access to casualties at all points of the course, communication, well briefed marshals who know what to do if there is a casualty, competent and involved race direction etc.

Get the maps out to the Medics early and get them involved.

We have used lots of providers, try calling your local mountain rescue they will often cover events. Charges vary wildly for different types of suplliers and cover.

And while we are on Hints and Tips inform your local ambulance service of the event and organise RV point for handover, and your plan for calling them, who makes the decision etc.

Legally you don’t need anything I gather – please correct me if i’m wrong.

Generally they don’t seem very necessary at small events, so I’d be inclined to just inform the police and have a phone ready to call the local hospital/ambulance service.

St John: I know a few people involved with them. Their heart is in the right place, but it all comes down to who you get on the day.

With MMS they had a copy of the RA and route showing marshal positions and vehicle access. Each marshal had the phone number of the MMS leader on their info card (showing their numbered fixed position). In the event of an incident they called him giving their position number and MMS did their stuff. MMS talked directly with the marshal at the scene. Once they were away I, in my position as head marshal, got told what was going on. Short chain of information with the quickest response time.

Luckily it was never needed for anything serious. All casualties since the very first one have been walking wounded, including the guy who implaled his face on a tree branch!

The point is that they had a plan that would work if needed.

Legally you don’t need anything I gather – please correct me if i’m wrong.

Not too sure about that. To get your insurance and therefore your site access permission you have to show a duty of care to your customers. Well, we did anyway.

i cant see any legal requirement to provide on site medical cover.. we organise motorcycle off road events for up to 280 competitors and dont have to. the only time we have had an emergency was when an old lad broke his ankle, air ambulance soon had him away ( we traditionally donate £500pa to the air ambulance each xmas)

Try your local Mountain Rescue and see if they’d be willing to cover the event!

If you get (group) affiliated with the CTC, (about £50 + one off set-up fee of £50) for insurance and the ride is on public rights of way, and you show a duty of care (risk assessment) I believe you will be covered.

They call (land or air) ambulances if its serious. Any minor stuff is…well minor so can be treated easily enough or be driven to A&E.

It must differ with regions / land owbers.

The British Red Cross also offer these services, so it’s worth getting a quote from them.

Might be worth speaking to Innerleithen MTB Racing- they were using a mountain rescue service for their enduro earlier in the year, which makes sense really. They’re official Good People so would probably help if they can

There’s these guys too they may do as far as Scotland.

http://www.rapidreactionfirstaid.co.uk/index.html

Shucks.

Yes email me happy to pass on contacts/advice etc. helen@innerleithenmtbracing.com

There is a minimum legal requirement for FA cover under HSE guidelines for any kind of public event. The Guidance lists various criteria to which you attach a rating to get an overall score for the event, to ascertain the level of cover required. Doesn’t fit well with outdoor sporting events, DH didn’t score that high until you added in the spectator count.

BC guidelines are rather non-specific, your Commissaire can provide advice and will assess the level of provision.

But anyway I digress, to answer somebody’s question, if you have any kind of insurance for an event, it is on FCS or Council land then you will have to follow the HSE Guidelines, and more.

And on a personal level, I want to keep sleeping at night, so safety is a primary issue at our races. Which I know kills my street cred stone dead, but I was never that cool anyway…

Harry_the_Spider – Member

Sorry if this sounds bitter but it caused no end of trouble on the day.

As did the hailstones, the rain and the gale force winds. Oh and the mud, OMG 😐

I remember that day well, I too heard that the casualty on the chicken run round the bomb hole had broken his ankle, was this not really true then?
I/we did well, 4th in class (mixed team) but only cos sooo many cleared off home early due to the foul weather and like proper Northern hard nuts we carried on to the bitter end 🙂

Dont use St johns, all they’re good for is a triangular bandage and a cup of tea. At a national event a few yeears ago a competitor collapesed in front of the SJA crew, who did nothing, no CPR, NOTHING! I had to climb over the crowd barriers to get to him and start CPR with a few of my clubmates helping. They went to fetch a defibrilator form the club rooms and didnt know how to operate it. To cut a long story short they stood by while we gave the guy CPR and used the defib to ressusitate him. It took a 1 hour from collapse to the casualty being put in the back of an ambulance. When organising our own club race (300 plus entrants) we vowed never to use them again, we hired trained medics/paramedics for the day.

The casualty made a full recovery.

Oh, and they called an air ambulance for the casualty… he would have died if we hadnt insisted on a land ambulance as you cant do CPR in a helicopter.

we use Rossendale and Pendle Mountain Rescue Team as they are the only people capable of getting casualties out of the quarry, usually 3 teams and a couple of vehicles

we also have a number of people who hold an outdoor activity first aid qualification who are on the course

that coupled with a good marshal distribution and comms is probably all you can do

these days it’s remarkable how riders spring back to life before the MRT get to them with the first aid kit, dying one moment, off down the trail the next!

I would talk to other event organisers and the local MRT about cover, they should be able to point you the right way

I remember that day well, I too heard that the casualty on the chicken run round the bomb hole had broken his ankle, was this not really true then?

Nah, the bugger (one of the duathlon entrants, not even part of HtN) was off on his holidays 2 days later with nothing but a slight limp.

If they hadn’t hit him with so many pain killers he could have walked out of it!

If you are in Scotland then the two “obvious” choices are St Andrews Ambulance and the British Red Cross. I used to work with one of these several years ago (and at large events they often work together) and you could get great support from either, but you could also get less than you might hope for.

You’ll need to discuss with them exactly what you need and want. You might(?) get a better price talking to someone locally but I think you will get a more realistic assessment of capability if you speak to permanent staff at one of their main offices (the local group will be dead enthusiastic about your event with potentially exciting injuries!). Generally for “spectator” injuries, and participants who make it into the first aid post you should be fine (although captaincarbon’s story is worrying it will not be the norm (in fact its more likely you get trampled to death as 10 people all try to treat you)). Where you may find them less capable is casualty extrication – so if someone has done something nasty part way round the trail and needs splinting, backboard, etc or is in a difficult spot to get a stretcher out from (e.g. needs rope work to do safely) then the average first aider doesn’t have the experience to do that with confidence – there’s a good chance that your cyclist will be one of the first real casualties they have treated with serious traumatic injury. Bear in mind they are there to do first aid – i.e. take those first initial steps to maximise the chance of survival until the professionals arrive. In Scotland they will not* transport casualties to hospital – this is part of their memorandum of understanding with the Scottish Ambulance Service.

In some parts of Scotland the local group/team will be quite used to dealing with complicated events spread out over wide areas with potentially complex casualties but in other areas they’ll be more used to dealing with drunks, drugs etc, and the logistics for events with tens of thousands of spectators. Its quite important you understand how experienced the people you get on the day will be with your sort of event.

If your event is for charity or the community their pricing model should be more flexible than if it is a profit making venture. There are obviously costs associated with getting people there, equipped and trained – as a minimum you should expect to be covering travel expenses and supplying food (but not an unlimited budget) etc.

There are a number of “private” suppliers of event medical services. Whilst some of these do seem to be pretty well set up, its a sector which is essentially unlicensed so has a significant proportion of “paraheadaches” (people who believe they are paramedics but are really just jumped up first aiders!). They’re often quite easy to spot because they will be dead keen to tell you all about their equipment!

I’d expect to be paying quite a bit more for a “professional organisation” as they will be paying their staff for being there. So two people (the minimum really) for a day with a vehicle is going to be at least £400-500 – potentially more. If you really need this level of service it may worth asking Scottish Ambulance for a price for comparison – at least you know what you are getting there.

If you’ve got a wide area to cover with tricky access problems then the Mountain Rescue suggestion is a good one. You might need to understand what happens if they are out on a shout though (will they have spare equipment for your event etc?).

* under normal circumstances. (Where appropriately equipped and staffed some teams elsewhere in the UK may transfer some casualties).

This is a curious one, somehow in the back of my mind I’d assumed people providing medical backup would have to be licensed and trained to a certain level. How odd.

This is a curious one, somehow in the back of my mind I’d assumed people providing medical backup would have to be licensed and trained to a certain level. How odd.

Its a few years now since I’ve been directly involved, back then I think anyone could call themselves a paramedic, buy a landrover slap some dayglo stripes on it and off you go (they will almost certainly have some first aid training but not to the standard that is required for an NHS paramedic). I believe this has now changed and only HPC registerred Paramedics can use the title. But the names “Ambulance Technician” or “Event Medic” are still unregulated. Most will have some training, and probably beyond what you would get with an average first aider – but the training is often vague and poorly defined.

we have had a number of injuries in a single event but the R+PMRT coped very well arranging a transfer to conventional ambulance so as to return to site to pick up the next one

the issue of call out is a big one especially as many call outs are for “search” activities which use up a lot of their resource. We work closely with R+PMRT and release them as soon as possible (this has happened once). If necessary we would either try and do a “controlled” event stop, or if required pull the plug and stop the race immediately.

We have also had an instance where a rider has left the quarry, called 999 and then we have had an ambulance trying to get into the quarry due to a poor location from a casualty (who wasn’t in the quarry where we had 3 MRT teams with two 4×4 ambulances and no casualties).

Good luck!

Just seen this – the question of first aid cover at events is one we often get asked (From an MR perspective). Mountain rescue teams provide a 999 emergency response service; we generally do not provide event cover (all about insurance and medical insurance cover). There are exceptions – in my team’s patch there are some very serious fell races which often provide us with customers, so for the big races we tend to carry out our monthly exercises ‘on the hill’ on the route of the race. The only event we actually ‘marshall’ is a fell race which raises funds for our team – local fell runners organise the race as a thankyou to us.

MR teams work at ‘the behest of the chief constable’ so insurance for teams comes through their local police force; if we happen across a casualty whilst out and about we very quickly have to inform police HQ to get an incident number in order to be covered by insurance. Whilst there are regional variations this is pretty much the case throughout England and Wales (Scotland is slightly different). As such MR teams do not provide health amd safety ‘event’ cover this is more in the remit of St Johns and British Red Cross Society. There are also private providers.

Do you have to have first aid cover at a sporting/public event – pretty sure you do but best to check it out with CAB or British Cycling. Would expect it to be stipulated in your event insurance.

By all means contact your local MR team they *may* have some flexibility, particularly if it puts pounds in their collecting boxes.

Don’t expect too much, St Andrews offer first aid – remember that first aid is first aid.

The job of a first aider is to stabilise a casualty and keep him alive until the ambulance/doctor arrives (a first aider should ensure these are summoned as necessary). Recovery from an awkward location is not a first aider’s duty.

Have used St Andrews, Cairngorm Mountain Rescue and Rescue Medics for events in Scotland.

Cairgorm Mountain Rescue and Rescue Medics are recommended. The former are awesome hecklers. Rescue Medics very good too – dealt very well with a serious head injury at a SXC event, was only when Ambulance Control got involved that it started to go tits up.

Cost for all options were in the hundreds.

implaled his face on a tree branch

😯