[Closed] How long to be a credible Cat 4 or am I just crap (road content)

You might be fit enough just not experienced. Take time to learn how to race. That along with plenty of training with get you there.

There is no real time frame. Just make sure your enjoying yourself and not beating yourself up about it.

How far off the back of the pack were you?
How far through the race did you get dropped?

Was it a crit? They can sometimes be a bit brutal if there are tight turns as everybody slows down and then accelerates away. Or were you just struggling to keep up with the pace generally?

Edit: How many riders were there?

I would add, I had been through a morning sprint interval training on hills so that didn't help.

It was a 1hr/12 lap race on a circuit. I couldn't hold the Cat4 bunch after 20 mins, then basically just struggled through as fast as possible thereafter solo. Wind was 50/50 behind and in front about 20kph, so quite tough once solo.

20 riders in total, 6 in Cat 4 (it was a handicap).

Ny average was 29.9kmph / 200watts est by strava

I think you have the answer there then! Don't do interval training on hills before a race!!

Plus, do all you can not to get dropped on a windy day. Bad enough if you are feeling good let alone if you have trained in the morning.

I think you have the answer there then! Don't do interval training on hills before a race!!

this!!

Kryton57 - Member

I would add, I had been through a morning sprint interval training on hills so that didn't help

Why would you do that ?

Tough on your own in the wind. But unless the lap was hilly 29.9km is a bit short on overall pace even isolated. Definitely leave out the pre race training session next time 😯

FWIW technically I may not be the best but understand getting in the wheels, echelons etc, I'm really looking for comments based on the the duration it may take to at least stay with the pack.

A school friend of mine took up cycling about 18 months ago, having never done it before really, has nothing else to do but rides his bike loads. He's gone from struggling up climbs to doing 200 miles+ every week, and finished very happily in the top quarter of the bunch at his first (cat 4) RR at the weekend. So... less time than it's taken you! HTH. 😉

(perhaps) more helpfully given the amount of riding/training you seem to do, I'm surprised you can't already. Are you comfortable sitting in the group, or do you tend to keep yourself on the outside of the bunch?

Edit: aah, doing hill reps in the morning then wondering why you can't race is pretty daft. I'm out.

you were probably tired.
try another race, with more people in it of your standard so the group to hang onto is a bit bigger.

[njee - are you ever nice to people?]

Out of interest, what sort of average speeds would you expect in cat 4, 3, 2 or 1? Hypothetical scenario: 1 hr duration, not much wind, no steep hills.

When starting you need to be a "clever" as possible in races. Never be at the back of the bunch, never be at the front. Always take a wheel and if you are at the back after a corner move up the bunch before the next corner/hill. Only when you can sit in the bunch then get up to the front and do some turns.

Oh and road racing hurts..... lots!

25mph IME but it really depends - 4th cat can vary massively from packs of bunch engines to people who aren't as fast as the higher cats but still understand tactics (and not chasing down every break).

But to the OP, don't do intervals just before a race unless you're used to doing that and already plenty fit enough 🙂

Racing, racing in a crit stylee, is way different than a group rideout. Unfortunatly you will have to get a race head on, think about positioning, drafting, resting, acelerating and so on. 1hr races are hard, everyones fresh, everyones got race heads on and a short time within which to do this... They will kill you and not think too much about it either.

I did last years Rapha Crit in Smithfields on my foldie, I'm fit, I ride hard, upshot was I got boxed in on the first corner and dropped out of the head group then couldn't race hard enough to get back on.. I ended up in the Pack and was soooo dissapointed I threw the foldie into the back of the van with a whole host of expletives accompanying what should have been a fun event.

I'd say rest before the next event, then get into the zone about 1/2hr pre the start then ride as hard as you can for the first 2 laps then see where you are in the pack. If you still bomb out, chill out and extend your expectations out for a few more months.

DOn't get pissed off if you loose out, it's a learning process and no one cares except you anyway. 😉

[njee - are you ever nice to people?]

All the time, fatty 😉

But I think Kryton is ripe for it, and I do (vaguely) know him IRL, so I'd like to hope he knows it's not personal.

My last comment was sincere too, that he puts in the hours so I'd suggest the fitness is there, it's perhaps the race craft -including not doing interval sessions just before racing - that's letting him down.

"25mph IME but it really depends - 4th cat can vary massively from packs of bunch engines to people who aren't as fast as the higher cats but still understand tactics (and not chasing down every break)."

Wow - that seems fast. Where do all these people find time to get so fit? I thought I was fitter than your average guy, but I couldn't manage that.

Then again, I might just be comparing my average speed to that of a pack. How much faster can you go in a pack? I think in my hypothetical scenario I'd be ok at 30 kmh on my own, but what would that get me if I was with a pack?

Just wondering whether I'd embarras myself if I entered a race.

Yeah, but that's not like 25mph riding on your own. If you're riding in a pack without leaving big gaps, you can do 25mph very comfortably even if 20mph would be your normal cruising speed.

But that's an important point - in 4th cat races you'll see a lot of riders spending a lot of time in the wind either at the sides of the pack or at the back with a slight gap - that makes it much harder work.

Firstly, what circuit was it? A flattish open circuit like Hillingdon or Darley Moor is far easier to survive than something tight and technical like Tameside or Preston.

Secondly, at 4th Cat level tactics don't make the blindest bit of difference. Mostly cos there aren't any and it's (almost exclusively) individual riders rather than organised, coherent teams with the ability to have a plan and stick to it.

Fitness is less of an issue than skill. It requires a lot of skill and raw nerve to be able to sit in the middle of a bunch of 50+ riders all within spitting distance, all doing 25+ mph. Get it right and it'll feel pretty effortless to sit there and spin along. Get it wrong and you'll be wasting energy on every corner.

To be honest, I'd say that being shelled out the back in your first race isn't a problem. If you're being shelled out after your 10th race you'll know if you're crap! First race, it's practically expected!

Set yourself some goals - next race, try and hang on to the back of the group. The race after, try and be in the middle of the pack. And so on. It's all about learning the circuit and the style of racing rather than worrying about overall fitness.

Riding at 30k's is about right for a good roadie group rideout for the first hour, then it'll drop to about 25k's then ramp up when everyone wants to get home.
It's fairly easy to crack 30k's in a group, pop out and do your turn and see how hard it is sucking a pack along. Do do this for too long a time maybe 5-7mins then drop back in, max out whilst you do it though or you'll get told to put some effort in. Thats riding, draft, do your bit on the front at Max, drop back in let someone else do thier bit..

And

Rotate.

Oh and from my own experience doing another sport where I was much fitter than most roadies I raced, the changes in pace are actually the hard bit to deal with if you're not used to that. If you do lots of miles at steady pace (even if that pace is quite hard/fast) then you'll struggle with the on/off nature of road racing.

We always found that at the start of the summer (when our main sport season ended and we started road racing) we struggled with road racing if the pace changed a lot. By the end of the summer after lots of time on the bikes and racing, we did much much better as we got used to that.

So, don't just do junk miles even if they're hard - do some interval work while out training - sprint for signs, 1 min off, 1 min on and so on (you can obviously get a lot more scientific but if starting out, this will still work pretty well).

Agreed some crit circuits are brutal. It took me a whole season of racing at Crystal Palace to be able to corner hard enough, accelerate hard enough and sit in the bunch. It was never comfortable though.

Then again, I might just be comparing my average speed to that of a pack. How much faster can you go in a pack? I think in my hypothetical scenario I'd be ok at 30 kmh on my own, but what would that get me if I was with a pack?

If you can do 20mph on your tod you'd be absolutely fine in a race. The problem with 4th cat - as Crazy_legs said, is that it's every man for himself, and it's carnage! E/1/2 races are actually much steadier, if quicker. If you can put yourself in the right place and hang on for the odd sprint then IME they can be easier to ride in! Fewer crashes too.

I'd do some races that are Cat 4 only. You could have been racing 14 experienced cat 2/3 racers, so frankly you'd have no chance. I did a cat 4 only race last year, and we averaged 25mph for 45mins (flat circuit). A local cat 2/3/4 race averaged 30mph on a flat course...

You'll probably not get dropped in a cat4 only race, especially if you rest for a day or so beforehand... This will give you chance to get used to pack racing and tactics.

Oh and from my own experience doing another sport where I was much fitter than most roadies I raced, the changes in pace are actually the hard bit to deal with if you're not used to that. If you do lots of miles at steady pace (even if that pace is quite hard/fast) then you'll struggle with the on/off nature of road racing.

We always found that at the start of the summer (when our main sport season ended and we started road racing) we struggled with road racing if the pace changed a lot. By the end of the summer after lots of time on the bikes and racing, we did much much better as we got used to that.

This + 1000

Guy in our club was a very handy time trial and triathlete but couldn't cope with the changes in pace in 4th cat races. He raced all year last year and kept attacking and he finally won a race around august.

he said wasn't used to the constant pace changes and he felt he didn't recover quick enough

are these kind of road races fun? is it all about the excitement?
sounds a bit of a ball-ache!

Like any race it's a masochistic sort of fun! Personally I get put off by the slightly random nature of it - the winner is often just a sit in sprinter (arguably someone who's judged things just right, but can be frustrating if you're trying to be proactive and get some good training in), and there's a good chance some random will take you out sprinting for 40th!

weeksy - Member
Kryton57 - Member
I would add, I had been through a morning sprint interval training on hills so that didn't help
Why would you do that ?

Just unfortunately timing. There was a 10 mile TT before that to, but I didn't mention it becuase the whole club was in it as well as me. So yes, 90 mins of hill intervals, 10mile TT and then a 1hr cat 4 race.

But I think Kryton is ripe for it, and I do (vaguely) know him IRL, so I'd like to hope he knows it's not personal.

My last comment was sincere too, that he puts in the hours so I'd suggest the fitness is there, it's perhaps the race craft -including not doing interval sessions just before racing - that's letting him down.

Yes to that - the next one on Saturday is a "true" BC event. I'll be turbo training race-sim intervals on Thursday, and will rest Friday. I probably shouldnt base it on one event, and am not going to chuck the towel in, but 2014 is going to be my virgin road "race" year and I want to make sure that I'm not just crap, other wise 2015 on an I'll relax and enjoy the club runs & MTB instead. I don't want to be thrashing myself blind to the fact I just may not be designed for road racing, neither do to miss the opportuntiy to do something better/differently to be more successful*

*within the remit of time outside work family etc committments which we all not does not necessarily and elite racer make 😀

You might be fit enough just not experienced. Take time to learn how to race.

That was my hardest lesson when I first started.
We were bundled in with the Vets race and I couldn't believe I was getting dropped so quick ,when all these old chunky guys were still there at the finish.
I then got some lessons from one of them ,and he showed me where to sit in the bunch and when to spot when things were kicking off,or if it was just a bit of nonsense.
He had a belly that needed the top tube for support,but he never used any energy he didn't need to and could spot any moves coming a mile off. 🙂

As njee20 sort of insinuates, there can be a rather random nature to lower category events. Sometimes, riders are simply there to get a fast chaingang. Some go because it’s good training and they’ll do suicide attacks off the front all the time until they die, then pull out but they’ve had a good workout. Some just want to sit at the back and learn the ropes. Some are desperate to win and earn their last couple of points to move up to 3rd.

The trick is learning who these people are – who’s launching the stupid attacks, who is always first to the front to pull it back, who is just sitting there. And then avoiding them! Ride your own race – you can’t control what others are doing so don’t try. Watch and learn. Try and enjoy it!

the next one on Saturday is a "true" BC event. I'll be turbo training race-sim intervals on Thursday, and will rest Friday.

I'd avoid big intervals two days before an important race, but wouldn't worry too much if I was 'training through', particularly with road racing otherwise you never do any real training!

As njee20 sort of insinuates, there can be a rather random nature to lower category events. Sometimes, riders are simply there to get a fast chaingang. Some go because it’s good training and they’ll so suicide attacks off the front all the time until they die, then pull out but they’ve had a good workout. Some just want to sit and the back and learn the ropes. Some are desperate to win and earn their last couple of points to move up to 3rd.

The trick is learning who these people are – who’s launching the stupid attacks, who is always first to the front to pull it back, who is just sitting there. And then avoiding them! Ride your own race – you can’t control what others are doing so don’t try. Watch and learn. Try and enjoy it!

Good advice that.

Well, until tomorrow I'm away from home and can't get any riding in so I've Weds-Fri as my only opportunty.

Would you suggest doing the intervals on wednesday and resting Thurs/Fri?

Or perhaps a slow pootle later in the week to keep my legs turning?

Although some of these races are supposed to be 3/4th cat, its quite clear that there are much better riders involved sometimes and there is no equal standard. Either they've dropped down from 2nd cat or want to stay at 3/4 to just beat up everyone. So, if you get dropped in a race, put it behind you and aim for the next one.

Well, until tomorrow I'm away from home and can't get any riding in so I've Weds-Fri as my only opportunty.

Would you suggest doing the intervals on wednesday and resting Thurs/Fri?

Or perhaps a slow pootle later in the week to keep my legs turning?

I have no idea what works but have my first 4th cat on Saturday, was planning on a steady hour on the turbo Wednesday night. Somewhere comfortably under threshold, certainly nothing intense.

So lets get this right you did a 10 mile TT, then 90 mins of hill intervals and then a road race? And you know wonder why the road race didn't go well? You sound a bit lost to me, I think a better evaluation of goals and priorities would be smart.

Out of interest what was your 10 mile TT time?

As for this week, I'd interval Wednesday, easy spin ether Thursday or Friday (1-1.5 hrs max). All the books tend to recommend an easy spin the day before a race, but I never found it worked for me.

I think I'd feel totally wrecked after 10mile TT then 90mins intervals - to then go and race....who were you trying to impress 🙄

Reading this with interest, cos I'm also thinking of having a go this year, but it seems as though race events in the North West don't pick up until Spring.

Would you suggest doing the intervals on wednesday and resting Thurs/Fri?

I think xc racing is very good training for crits. If you think about it an xc race is all about constant changes in pace/power.

Kryton I seem to remember you saying that you had a bit of an anxiety issue with all this stuff .
I would have to say after years of doing races that you won't do well unless you are happy and relaxed.
Did you enjoy it or was it just stress ?

Nervousness is fine but only if it is a positive exited sort.

Have a think about it , I trained myself not to give a toss.

My first thought was what a crappy time of year to start.

Anyway all good advice, have to say that don't I 😉

I'd just add ignore the correlation between Sunday rides and racing. My old club, a new club? built it's race team around who was fast on Sunday but come race day 95% of them were shit.
It's not all about speed, sometimes you go very very slow. It's much more, of course you need it, but you need knowledge as well. For example you'll probably see the same blokes over the season, you'll get to know who will do the work that counts. How many 'pop's' they'll make. It can get quite predictable, even I have a signature move that everyone expects.
Then there's finesse. There's trust in others, you can't be worried about anything. And be an ambassador of your own riding, all racers like a good rider wether you win or lose. Good riding is always welcome and will get you far, quite literally.

Come on, look at [url= http://aephotos.co.uk/p829620319/h3bb05bd3#h37e2b12d ]this[/url] photo and tell me you don't want to get out there this weekend 😉 . Report on last Saturday's race [url= http://www.twickenhamcc.co.uk/tcc/race-report-imperial-winter-series-cat-4-race-7/ ]here[/url].

Kryton, have you heard of "Race Tapering". Seems not. I normally wind down with an easy commute on Friday, a lie in and big cooked breakfast, then a ride out to the race on Saturday. It took a year to become properly competitive, even in Cat 4. In the Imperial Winter Series the level is very high and the races over-subscribed. Immense fun, good quality riding, but not a place for nerves. Intervals, lots of them, but not nerves.

Come down to Hillingdon, say hello (I'm on the front for TCC) and get racing.

EDIT :

The problem with 4th cat - as Crazy_legs said, is that it's every man for himself, and it's carnage!

Kryton I seem to remember you saying that you had a bit of an anxiety issue with all this stuff .
I would have to say after years of doing races that you won't do well unless you are happy and relaxed.
Did you enjoy it or was it just stress ?

Nervousness is fine but only if it is a positive exited sort.

Have a think about it , I trained myself not to give a toss.

Not just this, everything. But I have used Obree's methods pre race to success on a longer event and from an anxiety perspective I'm following some guidance in a book advised in the Chat forum, within one of my anxiety threads 😀

TIRed - I'm aiming for Hog Hill as it's close to me - some if ours ride at Hillingdon though. I have heard and used Race tapering yes, but I am following the Time Crunched Training Plan which schedules intervals on Tuesday (light) and Thursday (sprints plus just over and just under Lactic threshold). I appreciate I need to learn what's right for me I'm just trying to follow some generalised advice. With a bit of luck I may have some colleagues in the 4's on Saturday but those competing were competing in cat 2.

So lets get this right you did a 10 mile TT, then 90 mins of hill intervals and then a road race? And you know wonder why the road race didn't go well? You sound a bit lost to me, I think a better evaluation of goals and priorities would be smart.

Out of interest what was your 10 mile TT time? It should be noted that this was a coincidental scheduling of a paid training course and inter club event. I was going to sit out the TT but one of the chaps was missing a partner...

As for this week, I'd interval Wednesday, easy spin ether Thursday or Friday (1-1.5 hrs max). All the books tend to recommend an easy spin the day before a race, but I never found it worked for me.

I think I'll do that. FWIW actually it was 7.5miles two up TT and my/our time was 14mins.

Not at Hillingdon. Clubs like ours, Kingston and London Dynamos do have team plans and we do try and put them into practice. We've had breakaways succeed in a couple of races, with blocking and lead-outs

It was an absolute smash fest last time I went. Ambulance, the lot...

Don't train/tt/sprint on the morning of the race. Or the day before. Or the day before that. Jesus....it's not rocket science..,

The best training for racing is ... racing. That's why 60 of us are out every Saturday and not all chasing Cat 3. I've also followed the Time Crunched Cyclist in parts, but essentially my training is:

Tuesday evening club ride, Five day commute with some intervals and a Thursday Sufferfest. Saturday is 1hr race - read intervals. Or when this series finishes, longer club ride.

I never ride on a Saturday morning, much as I would like to take out our beginners on a steady ride for coaching, I just know I would be finished for the afternoon race at 1PM. The 10 mile steady ride in is, however a good warm up.

And I too was off the back in my first Cat 4 road race on a windy circuit. Get over it and get on. Getting dropped is as much as racing as winning.

EDIT:

It was an absolute smash fest last time I went. Ambulance, the lot...