On naismiths for bikes - there is this tool someone off here developed. Useful for estimating how long a route will take but I wouldn't trust it to work out how far I had gone.
http://www.mtb-routes.co.uk/northyorkmoors/routes/Esk-Valley-Railway/timeanddistance.aspx
Never seen the point in a gps myself. Been out with a few folk with them and they blindly followed the gps the wrong way because the path on the ground was not quite where it was on the map. Nice toy, wouldn't rely on one
In theory I know the skills, but I can't remember the last time I had to take a bearing and the last couple of times I've used a compass it's simply been to get an accurate north fix.(maybe twice in the last couple of years). The last time I got seriously lost was up on High Street in thick fog - missed a LH turning that went back at about 45° behind me on a rocky DH run. I realised about 10 minutes later and found it again, maybe 10 mins after that. As others have said - backtracking is pretty efficeient on the bike (if you have to)
Part of it is a lot of riding in areas I have reasonable knowledge of. I might not know exactly where I am, but I know where I've come from and I want to end up and its "thataway". The other thing, especially in poor weather is not to get lost in the first place - taking it a bit slower and *not* missing the turning is better than getting lost at great speed and then having to backtrack.
Also - mtber spend a lot of time in the woods - maps are far less useful here when you have next to no visibility anyway.
But yes, my wilderness skills could do with some work.
pretty ok at navigating in mountains in white out / dark - been doing it for years, though i did find some time spent orienteering improved my skills a lot - nowadays find a gps speeds things up as don't have to "head off" or spend time picking up features just to cross check location - can't remember ever being off route even
been lost on bike quite a bit mainly because not bothering to look at map too often plus in forest areas the mapping often doesn't compare too well with what you actually find on the ground (tracks/paths rather than contours and features)and as you blast along you just hope its all going to sort out in end
My map reading/navigation etc is pretty spot on (if I may say so myself!).
Done a lot of walking and sailing so used to plotting positions on a map although I rarely get a compas out in good visibility on dry land as it's fairly pointless.
The problem with MTB'ing is the speed and lack of desire to stop. Who want's to stop every 30 seconds on a decent to take a bearing and check they're still on the correct path? Whereas a walker that would be every 5 minutes for the same distance.
"but is there a mountain biking equivalent of pacing and timing to calculate distance?"
Yep it's called aGPSbike computer
yeah but only in and around chamonix finding and recording trails 
been lost on bike quite a bit mainly because not bothering to look at map too often plus in forest areas the mapping often doesn't compare too well with what you actually find on the ground (tracks/paths rather than contours and features)and as you blast along you just hope its all going to sort out in end
antigee sums it up reasonably for me.
My map and compass navigation is very good (a good few years in MR before the advent of GPS, and some orienteering experience before that).... but on a bike the issue is that I/we all usually fail to navigate.
Yes, I can pick up the map and figure out where I am... but that's not navigating. Navigation is a continuous process.
[Edit] tinas too [/Edit]
People laugh at me for riding with a map board on my bike, but I normally have one on if I'm racing so might as well get used to it, and it means I can navigate my way round without having to stop to dig the map out all the time.
The thing is, as others have mentioned, nav on a bike is different as you're following tracks and paths (usually marked on the map 
). Having competed lots in events involving navigating both on foot and on a bike (and been fairly successful), I'd suggest it's not necessarily easier, just different. Whilst you don't have the issue of following a route through trackless terrain, you do get the challenge of making high speed decisions in what can be a maze of tracks, where you can sometimes be making lots of direction changes.
People laugh at me for riding with a map board on my bike
Interesting that many people seem to have got their map-based naviagation skills from hillwalking / mountaineering / running / orienteering etc. Is that related to a different culture / approach to the outdoors in those activities? For example, my mountaineering club has many training sessions covering things like navigation skills, first aid etc, whereas the mountain biking club doesn't (even though the two activities oftern use the same terrain).
Personally, if I'm out mountain biking I take a map and compass for naviagtion if needed, and have usually reccied the route in advance (often on foot).
My concern is that in the event of an accident, I would need to provide the rescue services with an accurate location. That's probably the main reason why I wouldn't want to rely exclusively on technology (which can mis-function), someone else (they could have had the accident!), or just knowing my 'general location'.
I was lost but now I'm found.
Sue_W - Member
Ah, that's interesting, I didn't realise there were navigation courses for mtb'ers. What do they cover?
The MBL I did covered the following
Map standards / scale
Orientating the map.
Compass use and adjusting for declination.
Plotting and analysing routes on a map, map distance error.
Evaluating terrain and topography (map to eye).
Sighting/triangulation.
Identifying features on maps, symbols etc.
Using bearings from maps and distant land features.
Using deviation courses.
Lost protocols and back tracking.
Finding coordinates, Map and Latlong.
Using the sun, wind, stars, natural features to determine north.
In terms of pace we were told to average 12 to 15mph across an entire route and adjust to personal/group pace and terrain. Pacing sections on a bike can some times be tricky because of the speeds involved so we were taught to look for stop points or overshoot points on the maps than to rely on pacing.
It was all map and compass based with a bit here and there about GPS use.
Is that related to a different culture / approach to the outdoors in those activities? For example, my mountaineering club has many training sessions covering things like navigation skills, first aid etc,
Often being quite limited on time, I'd prefer to spend the time I have actually riding, than taking a while planning a trip or even pre-walking the route.
I did tend to memorise the route as much as I could - still found it was a chunk quicker just with the GPS-phone in a pocket. With it bar mounted it meant there was a lot less stopping and back tracking, with more time enjoying the ride - which is what it's all about for me :).
I can follow all the little red arrows at Glentress, does that count?
In terms of pace we were told to average 12 to 15mph across an entire route and adjust to personal/group pace
think i would need to adjust that to my personal pace by a pretty substantial figure - assuming a negative adjustment can be substantial
think i would need to adjust that to my personal pace by a pretty substantial figure - assuming a negative adjustment can be substantial
Me too, in the Lakes I would usually be lucky to manage half that!
10kph would be a much more realistic average speed over a full day on BW, Rupps, tracks, etc. The two fastest people to finish this years Bear Bones 200 had an average speed of around 12kph. That was over 210km of very mixed terrain, they are both very fit / fast and weren't hanging around
Never seen the point in a gps myself. Been out with a few folk with them and they blindly followed the gps the wrong way because the path on the ground was not quite where it was on the map. Nice toy, wouldn't rely on one
Dont we just follow these?
Places I ride tend to be woodlands and forests and issues with visibility are uncommon round my way. My navigation in such areas are typically by memory and I find I have a reasonable mental track of the direction. I usually know roughly where I am and in what direction is the nearest point of reference. Often get it right, but sometimes I get confused by areas that look similar to each other. Pine forests in particular where one area of trees looks the same as another. I keep track of the fireroads that cross them but do sometimes get mixed up when one looks the same as another.
Locally, Tunnel Hill is a good example of an area that gives me problems. An essentially small area of MOD pine woodland land with a lot crammed in, and frequently find parts look the same, and nearby Porridgepot I find is so similar in parts. I sometimes think I'm on the wrong hill. I'll navigate by the trails I'm looking for when I find them. Compass or GPS is fine to know which way I'm facing, but the maps, even detail OS maps, show little other than I'm in a patch of woodlands. Can easily find my way out, but not always the trails I'm looking for.
I can navigate with map and compass though if necessary. Growing up in Devon it's essential to learn, especially if you venture onto Dartmoor where you really can get seriously lost in good or bad visibility.
If I go somewhere with a large area that's utterly unknown to me I'll make a copy of an OS map section, pop in a plastic pocket and keep it in the bag. Always have a compass in there anyway, despite all the phone GPS stuff. Battery can easily crap out on me, or the phone crashes, GPS signal lost, etc.
Dont we just follow these?
I love maps me and would take one (plus compass) on an unfamiliar route or one where I could get exposed should the weather turn nasty.
Map reading for me is a good skill to have as you can plan\work out new routes. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a guy on a bike a while ago, he asked me how I found the route I was taking him around as the path in the woods was particularly good. I said I'd found path on a map and planned a route from there. He then asked me how I knew it would be any good, I said I didn't, he asked what if it turned out to be cack, I said I wouldn't ride it again.....
I'd hate to be limited by not being able to read a map or navigate, there's so much to explore.....
Sorry I meant 12 to 15kph not mph. They base it on a non technical XC type of ride with no significant climbs.
That's the idea though, you adjust it up or down for group and terrain. In the mountains its usually about half plus one or two kph. If I go for an XC ride with the local Spanish MTB club its more in the region of 20kph.
I do most of the navigating for our group. How any of us would survive if I got into trouble...
As mentioned before, I do a lot of ground work before going out (aerial, maps etc) so that I can keep an eye out for direction changes etc. I sometimes record the route through MyTracks app/GPS but it's not often necessary. I have a compass in my backpack if my battery fails.
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